ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#1 by pizzaguardian , Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:23 am

Hello everybody,

Zitat
The Chairmen Council of ETC 2019 has a planned outline for the ETC 2020 with the following timeline.

January 1st - January 31st : Declaring Candidacies

February 1st - March 31st : General Discussion - This is when the bid packages are to be submitted and questions answered by the bidders.

April 1st - April 14th : Voting Period - Vote sent via PM to pizzaguardian as a closed ballot. Formatted in a preference scale, counted via Condorcet, which condorcet method will be chosen before the vote starts.



We await your feedback on this
ETC Chairmen


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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#2 by Kiri , Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:02 pm

Great :)

Only one question: do we really need 2 months of "general discussion"?

I think 1 month is more than enough, so the vote can take place earlier, leaving the winner with more time.

And I'm not just saying this because Luxembourg is à candidate :p

Just my 2 cents


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Last edited 12.21.2018 | Top

RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#3 by Potan , Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:28 pm

Zitat
I think 1 month is more than enough, so the vote can take place earlier, leaving the winner with more time.



I think it doesnt matter if you know that you win it for 16 or 17 months but it does matter if you had 1 or 2 months for doing bid and discusions.


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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#4 by Bosje , Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:01 pm

Declaring your candidacy and submitting your bid could surely be done in the same month, no? I'm guessing that any city wishing to host is already working on this package and should be able to submit the bid along with declaring candidacy?


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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#5 by Mike (Santa) Klaka , Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:41 pm

I think a single transferable vote would be easier to understand and avoid some of the complications. It works well as long as you are looking for a single winner ( unlike the selection of Chairmen).

Mike


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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#6 by TOM A , Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:59 pm

Quote: Bosje wrote in post #4
Declaring your candidacy and submitting your bid could surely be done in the same month, no? I'm guessing that any city wishing to host is already working on this package and should be able to submit the bid along with declaring candidacy?


Fully agree with this assessment. I think we can cut the deadlines shorter!

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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#7 by TOM A , Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:00 pm

Quote: Mike (Santa) Klaka wrote in post #5
I think a single transferable vote would be easier to understand and avoid some of the complications. It works well as long as you are looking for a single winner ( unlike the selection of Chairmen).

Mike

On the contrary, a single transferable vote has given us many issues and headaches in the past.

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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#8 by Mike (Santa) Klaka , Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:18 pm

Tom, what were the circumstances that caused a problem?

Our total electorate is fairly small so it is possible to have a 'draw' but this is almost always easy to sort out, depending on how many candidates are tied and at what stage the tie occurs.

Sorting out multiple positions is another matter - although the present arrangement is not without fault and certainly looks a bit tricky to follow.

Mike


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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#9 by pizzaguardian , Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:12 am

Sure we can change the bid submission deadline to January 31st. Although the April vote date stands.

I understand it might be a bit late for some of yours liking, i can only say compared to last year it 2+ months earlier.

And as stated before by Potan 16 months should be plenty still. ETC requires many changes to be done from the initial planned bid, a good amount of it coming from the amount of teams/players attending and/or changes to the game rules themselves. The ORGA is expected to overcome these without real issue.


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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#10 by Mike (Santa) Klaka , Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:13 am

I think we are looking at the wrong 'bit' of the process.
Declaring your interest does not bind you to making a bid, it does not need any sort of deadline - why stop someone declaring their interest (say) a month before the vote. There should be a deadline for submission of a detailed bid, with enough time for people to raise questions and/or seek clarification.
If you put an early 'block' on putting in a bid you risk two things.
1. People declaring their interest 'just in case they get interested' but in reality, once they think about it, they back out as not within their capability.
2. Discourage 'Late Developers' who might have put in a really good bid if they had not already passed the cut off.

The latter does raise the possibility of having a situation where there are NO bidders.

A debate about the deadline for showing interest is a little like discovering the wheel then arguing about what colour it should be (apologies to Douglas Adams).

And by the way I would still like to know what is wrong with a Single Transferable Vote on this issue, if you don't want to post all the details (why?) you can email me on klakas1atgooglemaildotcom.

Mike


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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#11 by pizzaguardian , Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:35 pm

Not sure exactly what you mean Mike, can you explain it further?


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Last edited 12.29.2018 | Top

RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#12 by Mike (Santa) Klaka , Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:01 pm

If you are talking about the Single transferable vote then see post 7 by Tom.

If you are talking about the timetable I guess I am saying you don't need a deadline or cut off point for declaration of interest.

Does that answer?

Mike


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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#13 by TOM A , Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:59 am

Mike,

Imagine 3 countries bidding.

Lets say we have 90 captains voting.

32 vote for country A
26 for country B
22 for country C

That means you have 48 countries, and a majority of the captains, who would rather go to another country than A. Single transferable vote system does not solve that problem. A condorcet vote system always takes those preferences into account and calculates the most favoured option bearing in mind all preferences from all votes.

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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#14 by Mike (Santa) Klaka , Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:21 pm

I don't think so, In your example A has less than 50% of the votes so the country with least votes (C) is now eliminated and the second choice of each of those votes is distributed. If 15 or more went to B then B would be the preferred choice of over 50% of those voting (rather than A) and would win. If some of the votes for C have no second choice then these votes are just discarded (the voters are indifferent as to whether A or B wins) and the number of votes needed by either A or B to win becomes 50% of the new total votes cast

It is similar BUT transparent (everyone can see and understand how it works) rather than the rather opaque system where you 'put it into the computer' to see who has won - which looks very difficult to understand for those not so mathematical y inclined. Especially as you can apparently get 'tied' results' !

There are some other, slightly more complex reasons why STF is preferable - basically it encourages you to express your second choice (and third if there are 4 candidates etc) in all circumstances, which is not true of the present method.

Mike


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RE: ETC 2020 Host Vote - Outline

#15 by arthain , Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:03 pm

Quote: Mike (Santa) Klaka wrote in post #14
I don't think so, In your example A has less than 50% of the votes so the country with least votes (C) is now eliminated and the second choice of each of those votes is distributed. If 15 or more went to B then B would be the preferred choice of over 50% of those voting (rather than A) and would win. If some of the votes for C have no second choice then these votes are just discarded (the voters are indifferent as to whether A or B wins) and the number of votes needed by either A or B to win becomes 50% of the new total votes cast

It is similar BUT transparent (everyone can see and understand how it works) rather than the rather opaque system where you 'put it into the computer' to see who has won - which looks very difficult to understand for those not so mathematical y inclined. Especially as you can apparently get 'tied' results' !

There are some other, slightly more complex reasons why STF is preferable - basically it encourages you to express your second choice (and third if there are 4 candidates etc) in all circumstances, which is not true of the present method.

Mike




Actually that's not quite true.

Example:
32 votes A>C>B
26 votes B>C>A
22 votes C>B>A

As you can see, STV would give B as winner.
However Condorcet realices that 48 voters prefer C to A and 54 voters prefer C to B. Therefore >50% prefer C to A and >50% prefer C to B. Thus C is the Condorcet winner, whereas it would have been eliminated earlier during STV.

Condorcet favours compromise options (everyone is a bit happy), whereas STV favours extremes (some are very happy, some are very unhappy). This is extremely important when deciding our next ETC destination IMHO.

Condorcet is somewhat more protected against tactical voting than STV (Which has been a huge issue in the past), and in Condorcet it is more important to state all your 2nd, 3rd choice than in STV, because the 2nd, 3rd.. choices are used always in Condorcet whereas only sometimes in STV.

Condorcet can be mathematically calculated, although it is indeed a bit tougher than STV.
Condorcet, just like STV, is subject to ties, and there are several methos for solving those. Both of those system's tie-breaking methods are also mathematically tough (at least if you want a decently fair tie-break)

Really, trasparency is all about stating all the voting rules prior to the vote, blinding vote submission (To minimze tactical voting) and public posting of the ballots and results afterwards. Being mathematically challenging is not being opaque. Anyone with the knowledge or an appropriate app can recalc and double-check the results. If you want more in-depth info regarding voting systems, perks and flaws, and how to work each of them out, there is ample info on the net, but I can also guide you if you so prefer.

That said, if the voting system is to be changed, simply call for a CCC vote (remember to include tie-breaking system in your proposal).

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ETC 2020 application - Luxembourg

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