[VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#1 by pizzaguardian , Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:12 am

Hello Captains,

As the Chairmen Board of 2018, this year we have ran the Chairís elections slightly earlier than previously in order to give as much time for the incoming Chairmen as possible prior to the event. One of the topics that we have discussed, and will likely need addressing by the new Chair will be charter change. In a typical year, there has historically been a lack of candidates for the Chairmenís positions, limiting the amount of effort that can be put into such reform, as opposed to simply getting the event itself ran.

This year we have received far more nominations than ever before, with 13 separate nominations, including the two organisers of the ETC 2019 as well as returning Chairmen from 2018.

Given the size and complexity of the task in hand, we have a new proposal for the makeup of the Chairmen in 2019, with a view the next chair formalising this in a Charter Change. It is proposed that the 2019 board will consist of 8 separate positions, defined as follows:

Position 1: A representative of the Host Organiser (1 Post)
Position 2: X Wing Representative (1 Post)
Position 3: Flames of War (1 Post)
Positions 4-8: A mix of Ninth Age and 40K (5 Posts)

From within this group of 8, they will then directly elect an Executive Chairmen, who will ultimately run the board with the same voting rights as the other chair.

A candidate cannot stand for more than one position, nor be involved in another one to any great degree.

Based from the submissions to date, we anticipate that the candidates would fall as follows:

Organisers:
Tom A
Severian

X-Wing:
Krzysztof Piszcz
Fillipo

FOW:
Jonny Fisher

Mixed for T9A and 40K:
Potan
James Brown
Chris Legg
Marko
Babnik
Ed Murdoch
Isik

Why do we want to do this?

1. The event will run far more smoothly than with a smaller pool, preventing real life issues from blocking key decisions that need to be made with a larger pool of chairmen
2. It will allow more people to organise the event, and make better use of the volunteer pool that has made itself available
3. It will better represent the event as a whole, ensuring that each system will be represented at a formal level
4. A wider range of opinions on Ďhotí or controversial topics
5. It will prevent a one sided split in the Chairmen, as each year has tended to yoyo between Ninth and 40K.

As such, we would like to invite the Captains to formally confirm this change to allow the elections to proceed.

Votes will be across all of the main 3 systems (T9A, 40K and FoW), and as usual voting is a right given to any country that has competed at the event in either Salamanca 2017 or Zagreb 2018, and will be via PM to this account only. (You can check the "request receipt" option to get a notification when your message is read to make sure of ballot integrity until the vote officially ends)

The vote will run from August 29th and last until September 12th 22:00 CEST, with the following question asked:

Zitat
Q: Do you wish the chairmenís board to expand to the 8 positions detailed above for ETC 2019?

1. Yes, change to New Type
2. No, stay with Old Type



If the proposal does not pass, we will proceed immediately to the voting for the six chair positions. The threshold is 66,6% of the voting captains as although this is not a formal charter change in practice, its effects are similar.

By the ETC Chairmen Board of 2018


2018 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - ETC Chairmen - WTC Head Judge - BTC Janissaries
2017 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - ETC Chairmen - ESC Referee - WTC Head Judge
2016 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - WTC Head Judge
2015 WTC Merc

 
pizzaguardian
Posts: 218
Date registered 05.14.2018

Last edited 08.29.2018 | Top

RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#2 by TOM A , Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:50 am

So do you see this ad-hoc chairmen system being implemented differently year by year based on available candidates? There have been years when not all systems were represented.

Maybe better to add an option in the vote then to include all 13 volunteers again to not have someone feeling left out and curb the enthusiasm?

Why stick to 8? It seems arbitrary...

TOM A  
TOM A
Posts: 139
Date registered 05.16.2018


RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#3 by El Rey , Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:33 am

I see no reason to have a x wing chairman, as that system is not officially part of the ETC. I would instead suggest that each of the 3 ETC systems are each guaranteed 1 chairman each. I would then invite a representative from x wing, if that system is present at the coming ETC. To the chairman meetings, but without an official vote. Why would you guarantee a chairman spot for a system that might not be present at the ETC. The same could be done with the organizer of the ETC. But the chairmen are the voices of the captains of the 3 systems and not x wing or the organizers.

Also I do not think one can call for a chairman vote and the afterwards change how it is done. That should have been done before hand.


T9A Denmark

ETC 2006 #2 (LM), ETC 2007 #4 (Brets), ETC 2008 #12 (LM), ETC 2009 #3 (DoC), ETC 2010 #1 (VC), ETC 2011 #2 (WoC & AR member), ETC 2012 #4 (Ogre & AR member), ETC 2013 #3 (Ogre, AR member & FAQ member), ETC 2014 #5 (Skaven & AR member), ETC 2015 #7 (DoC), ETC 2016 #4 (Coach), ETC 2017 #4 (Coach), ETC 2018 #5 (Media).

 
El Rey
Posts: 22
Date registered 05.15.2018

Last edited 08.29.2018 | Top

RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#4 by TOM A , Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:52 am

I agree with Kent. The timing is terrible and this vote comes out of the blue and seems not very well thought out. Shouldnt we discuss options and poll the captains before proceeding with a vote?

Isnt this part of the charter reform and shouldnt we wait before trying to put something in place that will likely change anyways? Why not work inclusively like in the past and just launch a vote to include all volunteers this year? This year will be challenging enough if we want a full charter rework so the more input and willing helping people the better. The fact that 13 people put their hat forward is exciting and should be capitalised upon imo.

TOM A  
TOM A
Posts: 139
Date registered 05.16.2018

Last edited 08.29.2018 | Top

RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#5 by Chris Legg , Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:52 am

Quote: TOM A wrote in post #2
So do you see this ad-hoc chairmen system being implemented differently year by year based on available candidates? There have been years when not all systems were represented.

Maybe better to add an option in the vote then to include all 13 volunteers again to not have someone feeling left out and curb the enthusiasm?

Why stick to 8? It seems arbitrary...


Hi Tom,

The Chairmen board has not been compliant with the Charter for a couple of years now at least. This is the first opportunity in a several years where we can ensure representation for all systems and we feel that it would be a shame to waste that.

We are polling the captains - they can vote no and it will proceed as the Charter says.


ETC England WFB / Ninth Age 2009 - 2019
ETC Chairman 2018-2019

Chris Legg  
Chris Legg
Posts: 28
Date registered 05.22.2018

Last edited 08.29.2018 | Top

RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#6 by Chris Legg , Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:58 am

Quote: El Rey wrote in post #3
I see no reason to have a x wing chairman, as that system is not officially part of the ETC. I would instead suggest that each of the 3 ETC systems are each guaranteed 1 chairman each. I would then invite a representative from x wing, if that system is present at the coming ETC. To the chairman meetings, but without an official vote. Why would you guarantee a chairman spot for a system that might not be present at the ETC. The same could be done with the organizer of the ETC. But the chairmen are the voices of the captains of the 3 systems and not x wing or the organizers.

Also I do not think one can call for a chairman vote and the afterwards change how it is done. That should have been done before hand.


The fact X-Wing is not an official 4th System is primarily related to TWF going off line - the draft change was prepared and the vote ready to go live at the time it went down. By the time an alternative was arranged it was too late to do it before the ETC 2018. As such it was a simply quirk of fate.

I agree that the Chairmen should the voice of the Captains and not the organisers - however this year you have two organisers that have applied for Chairmens positions, neither of whom have mentioned this in their applications.


ETC England WFB / Ninth Age 2009 - 2019
ETC Chairman 2018-2019

Chris Legg  
Chris Legg
Posts: 28
Date registered 05.22.2018


RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#7 by TOM A , Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:06 am

Zitat


Hi Tom,

The Chairmen board has not been compliant with the Charter for a couple of years now at least. This is the first opportunity in a several years where we can ensure representation for all systems and we feel that it would be a shame to waste that.

We are polling the captains - they can vote no and it will proceed as the Charter says.



That the board has not been compliant with the charter is no grounds for not trying to follow its guidelines.

You know full well that proposing a vote like this is likely to pass with captains voting yes. Mostly because there isnt any discussion around this topic to make up anyones minds as to whether or not this is a good idea.

Like Kent said maybe the ccc doesnt want chairmen that will focus on having xwing as a main system. Polls in the past have confirmed captains dont want the event to become more sizeable and have shot this down. Shouldnt the chairmen be the first to acknowledge and follow the will of the ccc? Or at least open up discussions towards this to see if there is an incentive for this going forward? Where is the due dilligence?

My problem is you are putting forward a model that is not sustainable in the future and that you are arbitrarily deciding 5 of the applicants cant have a seat at the table. For the players by the players should be one of our pillars? Your argument that you want representation of each system can easily be achieved as well by launching a vote to have all applicants assume the role they applied for. So please include it in the poll. Ideally this would all be discussed in a thread before launching a poll that would require 2/3 majority to pass. Or are we ignoring the charter altogether at this point?

TOM A  
TOM A
Posts: 139
Date registered 05.16.2018


RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#8 by TOM A , Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:10 am

Zitat


I agree that the Chairmen should the voice of the Captains and not the organisers - however this year you have two organisers that have applied for Chairmens positions, neither of whom have mentioned this in their applications.


You insult me. I have been a chairmen for 5 years in the past and somehow me being part of the orga crew this year is part of an ulterior motive? Is this the real reason behind this vote? Why not address that then?

TOM A  
TOM A
Posts: 139
Date registered 05.16.2018


RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#9 by El Rey , Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:19 am

Zitat
The fact X-Wing is not an official 4th System is primarily related to TWF going off line - the draft change was prepared and the vote ready to go live at the time it went down. By the time an alternative was arranged it was too late to do it before the ETC 2018. As such it was a simply quirk of fate.



Having a vote is not the same as them becoming an official part of the ETC. I would personally urged people to have voted against such a thing, as the ETC is already too big for many to handle and making it forced bigger only worsen that.


T9A Denmark

ETC 2006 #2 (LM), ETC 2007 #4 (Brets), ETC 2008 #12 (LM), ETC 2009 #3 (DoC), ETC 2010 #1 (VC), ETC 2011 #2 (WoC & AR member), ETC 2012 #4 (Ogre & AR member), ETC 2013 #3 (Ogre, AR member & FAQ member), ETC 2014 #5 (Skaven & AR member), ETC 2015 #7 (DoC), ETC 2016 #4 (Coach), ETC 2017 #4 (Coach), ETC 2018 #5 (Media).

 
El Rey
Posts: 22
Date registered 05.15.2018


RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#10 by Mike Newman , Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:12 am

Who are the two people involved with being orgs?

Can applicants change their applications to reflect any comnection/involvement they have with the org? Seems a bit cloak and dagger that they didnít mention thisnin the first place?

Also seems very strange to have the board due to oversee the orgs being made up of orgs, - while they do deserve a voice, certainly shouldnít come with a high % of votes.

So, while the timing of this seems awful, Iíve got to be in favour of both limiting number of seats orgs can have, and of making sure all systems have a say.

However this can be done by captains voting if all captains are made aware of the issue I guess rather than full reform?


England t9A 2015, 2016, captain 2017, co-captain 2018, captain 2019

Mike Newman  
Mike Newman
Posts: 33
Date registered 05.15.2018


RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#11 by Mike (Santa) Klaka , Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:42 am

I can see some very fair points made, both in favour of change and some of the problems that might result.

Why not have a compromise - how about something along the following lines :-

We hold the elections as per the current charter and 6 chairmen are elected.
We check how the election would have looked if we had passed the proposal, there will be 2 (or possibly more) extra Chairmen (it really doesn't matter that much if it is 3) I will nominally call these people 'Phantoms' - I have an odd sense of humour, sorry guys!
The chairmen together with the Phantoms work together to draft changes to the Charter, which most people agree needs updating but there will be plenty of possibilities and different opinions voiced. These proposals - with different options can then be posted on the forum for general debate by everyone, culminating in a vote to change the Charter. If, and only if, the new Charter (as agreed by vote) would result in a larger group of Chairmen then we take sufficient (suitably qualified as per new Charter) Phantoms and convert them (co-opt) into fully fledged Chairmen (making me a Ghost Buster).
I
In this way we can get a new set of Chairmen in place, nice and early, and add some Phantoms and they can start work on both the next ETC AND changes to the Charter straight away. We also get time to consider (amongst other changes) the pros and cons of the make up of the Chairmen for future years.

This would not require a Captains vote - you don't need to vote on the Phantoms as their is nothing in the Charter that restricts other people helping, and they will have been already chosen by the vote for the Chairmen - being the highest ranked losing candidate that fullfills the change suggested by Pizzaguardin (which may or may not be the ideal structure but is a reasonable starting point for now).

I hope I have made this reasonably clear, I will blame any confusion or ambiguity on my old age; it gets me out of a lot of trouble in real life. :-))

Mike

PS It does occur to me that ithe ETC has a Fantasy element it is wholly appropriate to have some Phantoms, even if only for 2019 - maybe we could change the titles in the new Charter ? :-)))


Team England FOW Coach (non playing)

Mike (Santa) Klaka  
Mike (Santa) Klaka
Posts: 32
Date registered 07.16.2018


RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#12 by TOM A , Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:07 pm

In light of things both me and Vladimir will withdraw our application as chairmen candidates. It is a sad day when internal politicking gets the better hand over some ten years worth of ETC experience in organizing and chairmen oversight in fear over an unlikely scenario where 2 people who are seasoned ETC-goers and have contributed a lot over the years, would possibly and suddenly decide to abuse their mandate.

We were approached yesterday by Babnik via PM in how the chairmen were afraid our combined votes might hold too much sway. We tried to assuage doubts by stating we would have no qualms abstaining from votes pertaining to any organisational matters requiring chairmen attention, and if it really would come to it, there was always the CCC to whistle us back. It would of course never have come to that but here we are, even when 13 possible candidates are in the mix where our mighty combined votes would not have any real influence at all, we feel singled out for no real reasons. Instead of being able to contribute to the important task of the ETC charter reform (there is more to being a chairmen than just organisational oversight Mike), and enabling a better ETC, both from the orga side (an angle sorely missing reflection in the charter right now) and from someone who has been an ETC chairmen from way back in the day when Jedi was still around, we now have a situation where another two people are jaded and throwing in the towel. Something to reflect upon as we are burning through volunteers at a steady pace. We regret that the chairmen board has the tendency of not seeking out the dialogue to work out differences but instead feels they have to operate via backchannel votes like the one in this topic to course-correct for perceived threats, all the while not consulting the captains council. It is wrong for all the wrong reasons, and creates an environment where both me and Vladimir would rather not work in.

We wish the chairmen goodluck in their endeavors and will from our end simply focus on delivering the best ETC we possibly can for you.

TOM A  
TOM A
Posts: 139
Date registered 05.16.2018

Last edited 08.29.2018 | Top

RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#13 by pizzaguardian , Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:03 pm

Count this as a personal response.

The board of 2018 offered how to select board of 2019 in a public vote. Your accusation of backchannel voting is absurd when the vote is public, moreso that the CCC will be at attention to reel back any orga. You know as well as i do that the CCC can only be more attentive, not less.

And accusing Babnik is unfair . If we stuck with 6 person chair board and 2 of them are the literal Organisers, you should be able to see how that can be seen as a conflict of interest?

It doesn't look like you are throwing the towel, it looks like you are throwing a hissy fit because things are not going to a perceived plan and vision.

I am sorry but a person can still help regardless of the size of the board and if they are in it or not. TK Admin had been helping us in such a manner for 3 years now and many more people as well during the years as you know since you are one of them.

So what is the real issue here? That the proposed vote only had one of you or Vladimir in? Or limiting the board to 8 people? I see a bunch of rhetoric but no actual offer of resolution.


2018 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - ETC Chairmen - WTC Head Judge - BTC Janissaries
2017 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - ETC Chairmen - ESC Referee - WTC Head Judge
2016 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - WTC Head Judge
2015 WTC Merc

 
pizzaguardian
Posts: 218
Date registered 05.14.2018

Last edited 08.29.2018 | Top

RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#14 by TOM A , Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:34 am

Quote: pizzaguardian wrote in post #13
And accusing Babnik is unfair . If we stuck with 6 person chair board and 2 of them are the literal Organisers, you should be able to see how that can be seen as a conflict of interest?

I am not accusing Babnik, far from. Just stating that he contacted us by PM, where this very issue was discussed. I am the first to see how this can be perceived as a conflict of interest. But is there going to be?

First off, my role and Vladimirs role this year is going to be different. I signed on as co-orga to be an enabler for the ETC taking weight of the orga's back by spearheading communications, bringing new ideas and executing them and being a middle man (much like a chairmen is now) to take weight off the orga's back, I will have almost nothing to do with the logistical organisation on site except maybe the days of the ETC itself (much like a chairmen). I could literally step out now and nothing much would change for the event going forward except that there wouldn't be time to organise a lot of the 'cool stuff'.

Secondly, we told Babnik that in such 'conflict of interest' cases we can abstain from voting if need be.

This is then followed up by this vote for a new model, which is a one-off resolution, not sustainable for the future, and might be totally void with a charter reform, to a problem that isn't one, might not be one, and where there is a system in place (the CCC) in case it ever becomes one.

There is more to chairmen matters than orga business so yes I am throwing a bit of a hissy fit. Things are not going to a plan and perceived future. But not for the reasons you suggest. The ETC needs a charter reform. Both me and Vladimir would like to help with that as we have been fervent supporters and voices of reason that it needed changing for a few years now, a prime reason for me to sign on for the chairmen position as I think I can be a driving force behind something very needed for the EC that I hold dear and that I have dedicated so much time on, even in years that I wasn't a chairmen. I am pretty sure if you look at it from my end you can see how I am slighted and how my positive energy for the ETC and all the work involved has been turned into a very negative one. So feel free to keep on throwing underhand comments my way and make it seem like there is an ulterior motive to all of this. Like I said before, it is a shame that ETC politicking is getting in the way of things. I have done nothing in the past to deserve this treatment. That I am throwing in the towel shouldn't be a surprise if instead of open communication (PM with Babnik being the only one) the only thing we are being served is this...

I stated an offer for resolution, namely including all 13 applicants as chairmen this year, just like we have done in the past. Even if it would be a bloated model, no-one will feel left out, we will get a good mix of fresh blood and new insights as well as vetted chairmen. You know as well as I do that not all chairmen are equally active so in reality it wouldn't be much of an issue, especially if the chairmen communicate well and divide tasks properly and efficiently. Even if of the 13 chairmen some are 'dormant', they can still be consulted for votes where it matters (hence drowning out the 'orga' votes), and at least they will be along for the ride and we might get a few more candidates willing to put their name forward in the future as well.

Zitat
I am sorry but a person can still help regardless of the size of the board and if they are in it or not. TK Admin had been helping us in such a manner for 3 years now and many more people as well during the years as you know since you are one of them.


And I will continue to post if I think things are not going for the ETC like they should. Exactly why I am replying here. This vote should never have happened before prior captains consultation and the necessary discussions. But if chairmen are going to keep on throwing these things out there like this and you don't have a seat at the table, you can't really positively change anything can you. All I will be doing is sitting behind my keyboard trying to get you guys to communicate better, clearer, and work inclusively instead of exclusively, just like I am doing now in fact.

TOM A  
TOM A
Posts: 139
Date registered 05.16.2018

Last edited 08.30.2018 | Top

RE: [VOTE] New Type of Chairmen Council for ETC 2019

#15 by pizzaguardian , Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:20 pm

Count this as a personal response.

There is no reason to be slighted.

You say you would abstain from voting, but take offence from the proposed solution which would guarentee you a seat, a voice and a vote. So what is it than?

You are the one seeing a neutral offer of restructuring with the available candidates for this year as a slight, which even if implemented prevents nothing of what you propose. The charter change can still be implemented, the restructuring can still be implemented with people helping from outside, you are the one politicking this , not anyone else.

Enough with taking offence please. If it is was just a restructuing you didn't like you could have suggested your fellow captains to vote down, they still might.

There is no reason to throw in the towel, no reason to feel slighted and certainly no reason to walk away at the first sign of disagreement with others. I know that you know better so i am perplexed a bit. When an ORGA walks away at the first perceived slight what are we as players supposed to think?

The thing that is supposed to be done is clear as day. The Board of 2018 offered a way to hand the torch, treating it as seriously a charter change that requires 66% of the votes cast. If a person disagrees with this it is clear what to do, they can vote against this if they are a captain, convince their captain to vote against it if they are a player and talk with other captains to vote against it.

And guess what? It might be turned down and everything will proceed as normal, maybe with 13 or 6 chairs, who knows. But nobody in the 2018 Board would feel slighted for a vote they offered that was rejected. Work will proceed apace.

So enough with rhetoric and hurt feelings. Let's get to work now shall we?


2018 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - ETC Chairmen - WTC Head Judge - BTC Janissaries
2017 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - ETC Chairmen - ESC Referee - WTC Head Judge
2016 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - WTC Head Judge
2015 WTC Merc

 
pizzaguardian
Posts: 218
Date registered 05.14.2018


   

ETC 2019 Host Vote - Winner Novi Sad, Serbia!
ETC CHARTER

Xobor Create your own Forum with Xobor