Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#1 by Frederick , Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:00 pm

Frederick´s personal statement on the post T9A-ETC 2018 events as a chairman and player:

Dear players and captains,

the last 7 days have been an exhausting exercise for plenty of people involved in the ETC 2018 and it looks like we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg atm.
We went from accusation to accusation, from vote to vote and from uninformed story to uninformed story and all the way back within a short period of time. Arguments between players, captains, refs and finally harsh words on chairboard as well lead to a lot of frustration – even ended up in calls for no confidence and votes to overturn the chairman´s decison.

First i´d like to say, that personally i think the call for a vote to overturn the decision of the chairman (that followed the decision and recommendation of the refs on this matter) to not ban Konrad for at least one year equals a vote of no confidence in chairmen. The chairmen have been given a mandate and all act and behave with the best they can to make ETC a success. They had to take a decision in a really delicate situation and did not take this one lightly. Chairman had a lot of personal chat with plenty of guys involved in the situation, with refs, with the respective persons, the teams around them and in the end based the decision on knowledge i´d say was far ahead of the current level of most captains who participate during the running vote.

I personally demanded to turn this vote on overturning the decision into a general no-confidence vote, but so far it has not been handeled.

There is a strong demand of the captains community to know what chairman voted on what matter. I want to give you full insight on what i did and why i voted for certain options:

1. Vote to determine the winner oft he ETC 2018. I have been the one who voted Poland to be winner, while Spain takes second place. My reasoning for this is pretty simple and has two main reasons:
a. the Rules-Pack imo is something that needs to be applied without any exceptions. Judges have to make sure players can at any point in time rely on the text written in the pack.
b. I´m one of the few persons who work on the T9A tournament-pack and was heaviely involved in the process of creating the rules-pack for ETC as well. We all know meanwhile that even after 2 years of official T9A-rulespack, the C&P of the victory-condition-part into the ETC-pack (as addition tot he part the judges created), the lectoring of all T9A chairmen and finally the vote of captains on this pack (which was unanimous on this part, while other parts were adjusted on request), nobody so far spotted the doubled-up part of the tie-breaker (at least nobody reported it). Now comes the strange but true part. I never intended to put uncapped battlepoints into this document and honestly neither ever considered it as a tie-breaker, nor have i been aware it has been used as a tie-breaker at ETC the last years. For me it always was BP > VP > Coinflip. So the question came up to me after the event what was intended to be in the pack and the honest answer kinda shocked quiet a few people. I apologize that as a chairman i have not been up to date to this certain kind of tie-breaker from the past.

My vote could have not been different due to the fact that i clearly want to put honesty into it. I knew about the intentions, i value the rules-pack as high as the actual rules of the game and even when considering the typo, the closes change to fix it, would have been to remove the unnecessary step from it. So three strict facts that disallowed me for anything else, no matter how much i would sympathize with Spain being the winner.

(either way i have been fully aware that this ETC clearly created two big losers and that the most shame of all: Poland feeling cheated by the decision on the tie-breaker and Spain – no matter how hard they celebrate the victory – will always have that bad taste in their mouth, that in the end their victory was not created at the tables, but due to post-event decision … this all makes me really upset and is a disgrace for both teams in the end)

2. Vote on the „punishment“ for Konrad´s behaviour towards Erik and Camilla. I have been on the camp that voted „no ban“ for Konrad and instead wanted to apply a strict warning for next year with the option for more harsh immediate punishment. This topic has been a hot and really controversial one. Chairmen decided to first give the judges a chance to give a recommendation on this topic and this ended up with „no ban“ for Konrad. This made the really difficult task a bit easier in the end to figure out how to vote. Still there was the facts that Konrad at the Sunday of ETC already announced that he will quit playing T9A (as a part of T9A staff i can not stress enough how much of a massive loss this is for the game as a whole!) and that the process of personal apologies was ongoing.

The MAIN reason for me voting „no ban“ after all was, that imo it ist he fault of all the T9A-chairman that we even ended up in a situation like this, where we have not been able to support the judges in such a delicate situation, that we did not properly handeled the whole situation with Team Poland and took the burden of this on our shoulders, that we had all but one T9A chair playing at all and have not been able to foresee the emotional boiling and potential of such situation at all. We simply failed miserably and i as a part of that team apologize wholeheartedly to every captain out there, that i have not given this enough careful treatment and attention. All this has neither been Judges, nor Konrad´s fault in the end. We simply left all involved parties alone in a situation that could not have been more heated and emotional and kinda forced escalation. We as chairmen imo have the task to protect players, captains, judges, spectators and all other persons involved from getting into such situations at all. For sure on the end Konrad was the one who overstepped, but hell, personally i feel super responsible that he got into this situation and i´m super happy that i have not been captain of team poland in this situation … might be it it would have been ended worse even … nobody knows.

On top of all this it was really distracting that from day to day the situation got more colourful discriptions up tot he point i would have bet to hear the next day that Konrad attacked Erik with a knife … So in the end and after taking everything i heard (i did not see the situation at all) i decided to go with the referees recommendation, since most likely they have been the ones that have seen it directly and thus are the ones that have been able to judge the situation best. I´m still confident i did the right thing and did my part to stick in case of any doubt with the least punishing option.

3. Vote to decide to fire/ban the T9A-judges team due to the decision that have been taken post event. Internal vote on chairs only. I voted, that i fully trust the judges team as it is and would give them my mandate again any day. We simply left them alone in an unacceptably difficult situation and i´m ashamed that i have not been able to carry them along the way to ease their burden. They all did an exceptionally good job and all my available words of thankfulness i would like to direct at them (i have more of these in german than i have in english, but the german words would not help here at all ;)). Even in the situation where judges decided to fully exclude the chairmen from their decision i fully back here, since we came to them that late, that we could not have changed that chain of unfortunate events at all. In the end all guys involved tried their best to make a professional decision that pleases everyone and was based on fairness. After all: the involved persons are all volunteers (refs as well as chairs) and whoever thinks it is them to blame with full force for what happened in this extraordinary situation that only occurs when 10 stars align every aeon, i ask to take a few minutes to think about what he personally did for free to make ETC to what it is today.

So far regarding my votes and transparence on what i decided as a chairman on these post ETC events.


I want to take the chance as well to come back to the no-confidence-vote: personally i find it utterly cowardly to initiate such vote without showing face. Anonymous captains-demand in this matter is for me unacceptable. Reading all the requests on transparency on chairmen-vote i´m kinda baffled how such vote can be initiated anonymously. When it comes to the request of transparency i read a lot about it being important to decide on who to vote as a chairman for next year. I agree with this sentiment in general, BUT want to put some personal comment on me being a chairman:
I ´m doing this volunteer-work only due tot he fact some friends from the community constantly came to me and asked me to apply as a chairman for ETC, because they have been convinced i will do a good job there. I in no way do it for fame (even less for fortune ;)) or similar. My only intention is to be at the ETC´s service with my knowledge around event-organisation (and due to the plans around development of the ETC in the next years as well with my knowledge around non-profit-organisation from my all day job) for the sake of the players and especially my friends among them. It is a burden i have taken up upon next to my job, wife, house, several other hobbies, my own tournaments and especially the very exhausting task of being T9A staff atm. I did not do it because i go bored and needed attention. Everyone who might think so is plain wrong. This is the reason why i´m as well not at all attached to being a chairman and will give up my „seat“ immediately if anyone would ask me to do so (and ideally would fill the gap i leave!). I honestly tought about resigning on Sunday evening after ETC already, but felt like i´d be a coward if i would not walk this extra mile with my fellow chairmen.
I want to add, that i did not expect things like the post-ETC-trouble coming at all (maybe due to it being my first year involved in ETC like this or me just bein naive …) and felt like i contributed my part to the event already and still think i did a good job given the circumstances. Just as a short example: i set up the ETC-website, set up the new ETC-forum (all without being an IT-guy at all), i brought all mats and 2D terrain to Zagreb to make sure we have a proper gaming surface for competetive events, i accompanied and „organized“ the judges pre-event, … and much more, but this is no way intended to be a laudatio to myself …

Why did i put some words regarding what i did and why i have confidence i did a good job? Reading on the forums from guys i´d personally call „friends“ after several years in the international hobby that they call my things like „weak“,„incompetent“, „gutless“ and „a coward“ personally hit me hard as a truck and immediately made me think „why the hell do i do this to me??“. This damn game is worth nothing when relations and friendships get ruined by it and under the given circumstances i´d not be at ETC´s service for 2019 either way. It is only my friends who got me their by talking me into an application. A lot of things have to happen to make me do this mistake again, especially when the captains have no confidence in what i do (and worse: send me messages as a warning that their teams might not visit my own events anymore as well).

I´m a tough person and can take a lot of punches. I also have a lot of pride and this ist he only thing that kept me on the „chair“ for the last 7 days. The only thing atm that makes me think of doing one more year of chairman-work ist he shame that i failed to be there when i was needed the most … just to proof that i can do better. Given that i plan to play next year myself again i unfortunately kill this spark myself.

What i want to say to end all this wall of text full of auto-correct typos: It is not only my personal problem, that i qualify as a chairman maybe, but disqualify myself with being a player at the same time. Other chairman have exactly the same situation and they all do their best, although they might have completely different intention to be a chairman than i have. In the end it is now up to the captains to decide if they are able to find chairman that can do a good job pre-event and are on site as chairs only or if they have to deal with the situation, that not many guys that make good „chairs“ pre-event apply when they know they cannot play themselves (taking into consideration that being a non-playing coach/captain drags a lot of time and attention as well).
It is in the end a volunteer-project and volunteers do not grow on trees, especially when the conditions are -mildly said- suboptimal in times.

Last thing that came to my mind: what i find the most disgusting part of the post-ETC events so far is the blackmailing some teams did by saying „we will not attend next year if….“ and the very special captains that initiate witch-hunts and take it as a kind of game to push through all kinds of punishments for whoever is not them (especially when they are either known as being fair usually or worse – representing the very other end in reputation. One side is a shock and the other is cringe-worthy.

Cheers and kudos to everyone who made it up to here – be happy that i got sick of writing, because i have 10000 more thought in my head i´d love to put here as well ;)

P.S.: i want to direct a special THANK YOU to Isik. I think without him the event would only be half of what i currently is. You did an amazing and outstanding job, especially pre-event, mate!

Frederick  
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Posts: 19
Date registered 05.14.2018


RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#2 by Crusader PL , Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:27 pm

Respect man.
Sure the balls are in right place :)


ETC for life!

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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#3 by El Rey , Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:27 pm

Confident in the chairmens and a vote on a ban is not the same thing. For one vote of no confident is a issue for the whole ETC, while banning a player from one game system is not. Also there will be new chairmen vote soon anyway, so it is not like it will matter much either way.

1) I agree we should follow the rules, even if I don’t agree with them. But here the rules where not clear cut, so we couldn’t follow them anyway. So I would always go with how it use to be, as I also think that is the right way to do it. It seems you have been unaware of this when you made the rule pack, which was a shame. Your method make sense in a normal tournament, but not a team one like ETC, where we have capped points. Both Spain and Poland didn’t put victory points into the system in all their games. If they had, Spain would clearly have more VP than Poland, like they have more uncapped points. This is also a good indicator that no one thought that VP where the tiebreaker.

2: The 2 judges that actually saw/experience the assault, vote to ban Konrad. The rest didn’t see it IIRC, as some had already left. As for the “story” becoming worse and worse, from each time you heard it. That is why you go to the source and eyewitness and not rely on hearsay. Here we had been told what happened, Konrad could have told his side if he wanted to, he didn’t. For me it is a clear case and I think it hurt the ETC that the chairmen chose to accept such behavior at the event. Yes there was an issue with the rule pack you made, but that doesn’t mean you are responsible for Konrad’s action, only he is.

3. No comments to that, even suggesting such a thing is to me extremely silly and juvenile.

You need to look up the word black mail, as you are using it wrong. I can fully understand teams that want to boycott the ETC next year if Konrad’s behavior is tolerated. I would also foresee a hard time getting anyone to come and be a judge. Which is why I think it is paramount that such behavior is not tolerated as it could shatter the ETC as we know it. Which is also why I think it was a poor decision of the chairmen not to do it and I fully support the captains that took it upon themselves to correct this error, in a show of good leadership.


T9A Denmark

ETC 2006 #2 (LM), ETC 2007 #4 (Brets), ETC 2008 #12 (LM), ETC 2009 #3 (DoC), ETC 2010 #1 (VC), ETC 2011 #2 (WoC & AR member), ETC 2012 #4 (Ogre & AR member), ETC 2013 #3 (Ogre, AR member & FAQ member), ETC 2014 #5 (Skaven & AR member), ETC 2015 #7 (DoC), ETC 2016 #4 (Coach), ETC 2017 #4 (Coach), ETC 2018 #5 (Media).

 
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Last edited 08.13.2018 | Top

RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#4 by lagerlof , Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:41 pm

I fully agree with El Rey. Well written post Kent :)

If no team (other than maybe Sweden) puts in full VP for every game, how can it possibly be used as tiebreaker?

It was only my third ETC and I was 100 % sure it was uncapped BP, Chris even asked me (before I knew why) and I answered uncapped.

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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#5 by Marcus Östling , Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:02 pm

+1 on everything Kent said.

That you Frederick have the audacity to imply that Spain shouldn't be proud over their Gold medal. That their victory wasn't created on the tables. I'm speechless.

As a chairman you are elected to represent us, the teams. I myself wouldn't be comfortable representing anyone that I felt disgusted by. If you feel so strongly that you are outright "disgusted" by the great many teams that wants to make it clear that physical intimidation will not be tolerated, maybe it's a good idea to step down as chairman?

The one good thing that came out of this is that now we at least know better than to vote in whoever as a chairman.

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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#6 by Spectator , Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:21 pm

Yeah. Great one. I especially like that part:

1) I agree we should follow the rules, even if I don’t agree with them.

Seem rather straightforward statement... but then you say this:
But here the rules where not clear cut, so we couldn’t follow them anyway. So I would always go with how it use to be, as I also think that is the right way to do it.

Which is another way of saying "but I didn't like the rules so we shoul ignore them"

To sum up you managed to say:
I agree we should follow the rules, even if I don’t agree with them. But I didn' agree with them so they should not be followed.

Rock solid logic mate.

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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#7 by Mo Ashraf , Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:54 pm

Agree with everything Marcus has said.

To say teams that are boycotting ETC next year are blackmailing it, shows total lack of understanding of the term blackmailing and is insulting.

Frederick, you were elected to represent Wargamers from all over the world, to represent the ETC itself and ultimately to represent yourself. Show some class and dignity. Insulting others while in a position of power should be beneath a Chairmen of the ETC. If it's not for you, then maybe stepping down is the right call. Otherwise you threaten to undermine what being a chairmen is about.


T9A England Coach 2017
T9A England Coach 2018

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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#8 by Frederick , Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:26 am

Markus, you know i really value yourself as a special kind of person as well as Kent, Mo and Mattias ... what i think you all do atm is tearing the game and ETC-community into pieces, since i see how all this just makes friends from many different nations just picking at each other due to different opinions ... never being able to look each other in the eyes again, nor looking forward to give them a big hug at next years ETC ... it´s a nightmare coming true and shooting at everyone who does not share an extreme point of view that does not allow any looking left or right, is not helping the situation at all.

Reading my statement as if i do not indulge Spain to be the victory is outright insulting and plain unfair. I in fact said quiet the opposite and just pointed out that for sure everyone would wish for them to not have in the back of their heads that unfortunate circumstances made them the victors after they already thought they lost it while Poland celebrated already ... all this after the games have been over already and results from the games were final.

Sure one can put words in anymones mouth, but telling me i intended to disgrace Spain´s victory ... i have no words for that ...

Frederick  
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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#9 by Orion , Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:02 am

I can 100% guarantee you that Team Spain have anything BUT a bad taste in their mouth regarding their much deserved and hard fought win at the ETC. Theyre in heaven and mostly ignoring the drama.

Also, I cannot believe that you actually intended for VPs to be used as a tie-breaker in the TEAM event. It just shows that you were either incompetent or lying (I doubt youve been bribed to say such a stupid thing).

Really Fred... youve been around the ETC for enough years now to know how team events work. Please dont insult our intelligence by saying you actually meant VPs to be the first tie-breaker. I know you are anything but incompetent in just about anything you do in life, except for telling lies perhaps. Youre gonna need more practice on that.

Im getting a sour grapes vibe from you. Not cool mate.

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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#10 by James Brown , Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:31 am

Fred I don't know you well - but one thing I do agree with is that no one wanted this situation. However if it had been left to fester it would have left far more bad feeling. It is the courageous thing to do to bring it into focus, deal with it and then move on. How we move on as a scene and group will define us. The Captain's vote whatever the outcome is the most democratic way to address this.

Having flown thousands of miles to attend this ETC and the camaraderie on display I have no doubt we will come out of this.

I would argue for next year increasing the powers of the refs to stamp out any bad behavior before it gets to this point. When the Chairs are up for re election I would hope that mandate is strong for them.

Cheers James


NZ ETC 2015
NZ ETC Captain 2018
NZ ETC Captain 2019

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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#11 by Humblr , Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:21 am

Enough already.

@ Frédérick did the best he could. He even had the courage to step out and tell us everything. His courage, his integrity and his commitment should not be questionned.
Anyone can disagree with his point of view, but do it with respect and without questionning his motive or diminishing the awesome work he (or the other chairman/ refs) did.

I personnaly feel any physical assaut should be taken into account, with a one year ban sentence at least.
BUT we voted for elected chairmen and game them some power, power they righfully exercised with care and as humans.
We can disagree with the outcole, but for me, all their decisions are final !!

Please show some respect and some restraint, if not more.

I already voiced that I personnaly disagree with the decision taken, but it was done in good faith by Federick, and no one (or very few that I know of) can have done more than him for T9A/ be such a nice guy.
This décision is final for me and I want to express all my gratitude to chairmen, T9A staff and refs.

That is ultimately only a game. Violence shouldn't occur, not only the physical one at the venue, but also strong and bad words on a forum. This hurts people as baddly.
Sanction was taken, si can we please move on !!

If Captains still want to vote on the matter, si are their right. But it should be done it with respect and self containt.

Peace and love is much needed, in this toy small world of ours (T9A).
H.


French ETC player 2012/ 2016/ 2018

 
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Last edited 08.14.2018 | Top

RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#12 by El Rey , Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:09 am

Zitat
Markus, you know i really value yourself as a special kind of person as well as Kent, Mo and Mattias ... what i think you all do atm is tearing the game and ETC-community into pieces, since i see how all this just makes friends from many different nations just picking at each other due to different opinions ... never being able to look each other in the eyes again, nor looking forward to give them a big hug at next years ETC ... it´s a nightmare coming true and shooting at everyone who does not share an extreme point of view that does not allow any looking left or right, is not helping the situation at all.



Well you are a little hyperbolic again. But you are right it is tearing the ETC community into pieces, but that is because of the lack of chairmen leadership. If they had banned Konrad, it wouldn't be an issue, the captains vote, is for me the only way to save this from happening, even if some damage has been done. I still can't see how anyone can justify not banning him for what he did, with the evidence we have been presented. Saying that it is an extreme view to want someone who was physically treating a judge to be ban for 1 year, shows a breach in reality somewhere. But I do not think you actually believe your own words, you just use them in a heated movement of writing.

Anyway you are in the wrong here, even if I think you voted because you thought you where doing what was right, it was not and most people do not see it your way. Which I also told you before the vote, so you knew what you where getting yourself into. I appreciate the work you have done as chairman, I know there have been many hours of volunteer work done. Like when most people where heading to the hotel or town after the ETC, you where packing the gaming mats and "terrain" down. I just wish you would have used better judgement on the Konrad vote and not write in such hyperbolic terms, as that make you look bad. I know you from real life and online and know you as an very different persons than you comes out as here.


T9A Denmark

ETC 2006 #2 (LM), ETC 2007 #4 (Brets), ETC 2008 #12 (LM), ETC 2009 #3 (DoC), ETC 2010 #1 (VC), ETC 2011 #2 (WoC & AR member), ETC 2012 #4 (Ogre & AR member), ETC 2013 #3 (Ogre, AR member & FAQ member), ETC 2014 #5 (Skaven & AR member), ETC 2015 #7 (DoC), ETC 2016 #4 (Coach), ETC 2017 #4 (Coach), ETC 2018 #5 (Media).

 
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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#13 by Sir Löwenherz , Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:25 am

It happened, it was handled the way it was handled the way it was handled and the situation now is as it it. And at the moment many people from every side don't like the situation.

How about we look at how we want it to be in the future and than set things into motion to get to there?


We could start to collect the mistakes in the rulespack and set up a team to repair it.

We could set up a team to make the conduct of personal behaviour more concrete and embed sanctions in it. So in the future we would have clear cut guidelines.


We could set up a team looking through the charter to find strange things which need repair. (the TWF admin being an always on the job chairman when TWF doesn't xist anymore, that a vote of no confidence doesn't have a small explanation text, so all Captains from different systems are automatically in the we have confidence camp, open/ closed Votings of the chairman/ captains, … .)


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2019 ?

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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#14 by Xavier , Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:42 am

Hi Frederick,

First of all, thank you for your statement. I might disagree with you on some point, but I have so much respect for what you're doing for the ETC, and the T9A as a whole, that I am very glad that you are on the chairman board and we, Team Switzerland, hope that you will remain there because what we need is more people like you.

I have the feeling that, as usual in these kind of event, it's a storm in a teacup. 98% of it is drama created on a forum, affecting the ETC as a whole more than anything that player X or Y could have done.

There was an issue, the refs and chairmen dealt with it, let's move on.

I don't know what we are trying to achieve by spending hours writing, arguing and casting votes on a forum.


T9A Swiss Captain
2008-2009-2010-2013-2014-2015-2016-2017-2018
Organizer ETC 2011

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RE: Personal Statement on the Post-ETC-T9A-2018 events by Frederick

#15 by lagerlof , Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:58 am

Quote: Xavier wrote in post #14

Hi Frederick,

First of all, thank you for your statement. I might disagree with you on some point, but I have so much respect for what you're doing for the ETC, and the T9A as a whole, that I am very glad that you are on the chairman board and we, Team Switzerland, hope that you will remain there because what we need is more people like you.

I have the feeling that, as usual in these kind of event, it's a storm in a teacup. 98% of it is drama created on a forum, affecting the ETC as a whole more than anything that player X or Y could have done.

There was an issue, the refs and chairmen dealt with it, let's move on.

I don't know what we are trying to achieve by spending hours writing, arguing and casting votes on a forum.


So your bottom line is that it's fine to intimidate refs if you don't agree with them? And their wife?

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