RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#31 by Mr.Gobbo , Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:35 pm

Ahh, yes, the good old argumentum ad hominem. Consider me convinced and silenced.


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#32 by Johedl , Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:06 pm

As some have argued for those chairmen who voted against a ban to be named I would like to remind us of the charter:

•The Chairmen act as the “board” of the ETC and make all the day to day decisions that are not covered by this Charter. It is advised that the Chairmen put forth a poll to the Captains Council on all substantial decisions. If the ETC Chairmen can not reach a compromise then a poll is not just advised but mandatory. The Chairmen are required to have full confidentiality with regards to their internal debates.

The board need not to be pressed to break their confidentiality of their debates. They have reached a compromise, as they are expected to do, on the issue of ban which was to mild in the eyes for some, me included, but probably a bit harsh in others view. As the community is divided on the issue so is the board. It might turn out to be a good compromise as a ban could have reenforce the feeling of being mistreated by a biased elite of refs and chairmen.
As it stands, the question of a captains vote for a ban was already asked when the chairmen decided upon their statement and is still an option. If such a vote should not be successful the chairmen´s warning is still in effect and at least a sanction has been given from the community. If the vote is successful then the community has given guidens to future boards how to act in similar situations in the future. Such a decision would also be made by a jury of a players peers, the teams, and not just a few chairmen.

/Johan

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#33 by Grungimusic , Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:47 pm

Hi,quick question about this new policy:

I have, a friend, who really likes the idea that he can get in a referee's face at the end of a tournament, chest bump him, insult him, then insult him again in an angry rant to said referee's wife.

Now if, my friend, did this in the US, it would be immediate grounds for a lifetime ban and possible beat down, but he was pleased to learn that the ETC penalty is merely a "chairman's warning ", and is now seriously considering an application for the 2019 team.

However, could we get a clarification about how a "chairman's warning" works? So presumably, it means that if above incident were repeated the following year, a harsher penalty would result (such as a ban, or perhaps an even sterner warning). But how long is this warning in effect? Does it drop off on a rolling 12 month cycle? So for example, if my friend did this thing in 2019, abstained in 2020, then did it again in 2021, would he only receive a chairman's warning at that time?

Thanks in advance!

Grungimusic
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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#34 by Spectator , Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:15 pm

Now, that you have stated an intent to do so you would not be able to get away with it and unless you have any evidence that the action of polish player was planned in advance the situations are not comparable.

"Now if, my friend, did this in the US, it would be immediate grounds for a lifetime ban and possible beat down" unless of course the offender is a member of minority in which case ref would be banned as racist :)

"chest bump him, insult him, then insult him again in an angry rant to said referee's wife"
That situation has been described in many ways starting with physical contact (which a handshake also is) to chest bump or worse. Can anyone actually tell what happened? If that was an assult police should have been called. If that was just done in aggresive manner then he was punished for that twice already: by yellow card and by chairmen warning. How many times should he be punished for the same thing for you to be satisfied?

Lastly, ultimatelly he was punished for criticising ref. Many of you criticised chairmen here, some of it might be called insult which opens a venue to punish you in exactly the same way. All it takes is for chairmen to say he felt threated by any of the comments.

BTW. How do you know that Polish team / player did not show remorse / did not apologise? You only know they did not do that publicly. What if the player went on holidays and does not check internet and have absolutely no idea what is going on and no chance to reply? All I am saying is there are tens of scenarios in which your judgment is simply unfair and it's worth to consider them or at least let some time pass before making up your minds

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#35 by Babnik Kalenina , Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:06 pm

The incriminated player did apology by mp to the "bumped" judge.

Chairmen AND referees made the same decision regarding this event but apparently not good strong enough satisfy the mob.

The incriminated player announced by PM he quits T9A.

Thanks

Babnik, Chairman


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#36 by Manfro , Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:25 pm

Quote: Babnik Kalenina wrote in post #35
The incriminated player did apology by mp to the "bumped" judge.

Chairmen AND referees made the same decision regarding this event but apparently not good strong enough satisfy the mob.

The incriminated player announced by PM he quits T9A.

Thanks

Babnik, Chairman





Sad story. If referees and chairman (who are well aware of the situation) were already in agreement with the measure taken, I do not understand this public pillory


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#37 by Xzazzarai , Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:33 pm

I believe there are different views as of why this is such an important matter.
Some see this as just one (or two, however you see it) specific action at a specific time and don't want to make too much of a fuzz about it. It wasn't pretty, sure, but...

To me, this is about More than the actions of a certain player at a certain time. This is far from Only (I can't emphasize this enough) a punishment for this specific player. Of course though, that's one part of it. But it's also about drawing a line between what is ok to do, and what isn't, in terms of behaviour towards one another. And that is why a warning's just not gonna cut it. It's like saying "It's ok if you only do it once" beacuse nothing else is gonna come out of this warning.
That isn't enough.
It's never ok to get physical with someone the way Konrad did to Erik. A warning is like shutting our eyes and just keep on walking, Hoping it doesn't happen again.
It should Not be treated lightly. It should not be tolerated. And to just keep on walking is Not an adequate way of dealing with it - it's actually not dealing with it, at all. Which is why there is now a Captains vote.

This is about (but not limited to) Konrads behaviour. If he quits T9A by his own free will doesn't matter (he can still change his mind). We, as a community, need to put our foot down against that sort of behaviour. If he quits, and we don't do anything, it's Exactly like just issuing a waning - nothing has really changed.

This is not about a mob just wanting for someone to get hung, to see some bloodshed, for some inconvinience that occured - this is about setting the level for what is ok to do, and what isn't. An uncomfortable decision for those that have to make it, but a neccesary one. And if those in power are not willing to make such a desicion, maybe they are unfit for their positions?


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#38 by Mr.Gobbo , Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:41 pm

The HR team of T9A has received no direct message of resignation from Konrad / Abrasus so far.


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#39 by Krokz , Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:40 pm

AFAIK Konrad announced retirement from Fantasy ETC before the ETC, so this is not exactly meant to be punishment for him. Punishment should be made as a warning to all others what appropriate behavior in this hobby is. This ban would not be necessary if either Konrad or Polish team showed remorse and publicly apologized, but this keeps being about personal egos and projection of self on action of others which led to the whole incident in the first place.

Can we get information which chairmen voted how so we have that knowledge for when votes for new chairmen are?


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#40 by Laik , Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:10 pm

Question - why private apologies are not enough and who are those people demanding public ones and why?

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#41 by Scottish Knight , Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:19 pm

Because this matter goes beyond hurt feelings or whether someone feels remorseful.

This is an issue of conduct, and appropriate censure for behaviour which is destructive and should have no place at the ETC.

The captains who are voting for a ban want it to be completely clear that physical confrontation and intimidation will not be tolerated. That a warning is not sufficient, and that protection of the people participating and attending the event must be foremost.


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#42 by Chris Legg , Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:48 am

Quote: Manfro wrote in post #36


Sad story. If referees and chairman (who are well aware of the situation) were already in agreement with the measure taken, I do not understand this public pillory


Hi, for clarity the chairmen (or at least, not myself) have not seen this apology to date, so I cannot say that it even exists. Its existence was also not mentioned until after the start of this vote.


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#43 by Chris Legg , Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:50 am

Quote: Krokz wrote in post #39
AFAIK Konrad announced retirement from Fantasy ETC before the ETC, so this is not exactly meant to be punishment for him. Punishment should be made as a warning to all others what appropriate behavior in this hobby is. This ban would not be necessary if either Konrad or Polish team showed remorse and publicly apologized, but this keeps being about personal egos and projection of self on action of others which led to the whole incident in the first place.

Can we get information which chairmen voted how so we have that knowledge for when votes for new chairmen are?


I am in favour of releasing the voting details however only one other chairmen expressed support for this idea.


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#44 by Frederick , Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:19 pm

i will put a personal statement regarding all post-ETC events online sometimes tomorrow - i planned to do so earlier, but a of holidays in Slovenia and being busy with catching up reading all things that happened even, i had to postpone this until i´m back home. Today i have to catch up at work, but hopfully i can finish my statement tomorrow. It will include my votes and why i voted in certain ways as well (i´m one of the guys who asked to now just reveal votes, but to give every chairman a chance to put a statement in general before this btw).

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad

#45 by eggsPR , Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:39 pm

I wouldn't mind seeing which chairman voted for what, and why. Transparency and politics should go hand-in-hand.


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