RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#16 by Amit Hindocha , Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:19 pm

Quote: Laik wrote in post #14
Quote: Corky wrote in post #13
Offcourse penalties are counted toward capped points! - else it would only be a tiebreaker.

They count to total points - which made a draw, they don't count to capped points as it would change results - if I'm wrong please point it out in rules.



It's supposed to have a material impact - ie affects your actual standings, alongside tie breaker


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#17 by Mike Newman , Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:19 pm

The confusion comes from

Laik/Poland think it goes like this

1st decider - total score (capped minus penalties) - this is draw
2nd decider - capped - this is Poland win

Everyone else think it goes like this

1st decider - total score (capped minus penalties) - this is draw
2nd decider - uncapped - this is Spain win


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#18 by Laik , Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:25 pm

Discussion about yellow card is a different topic.
I still don't see a reason why the most important points on the tournament are not taken into consideration when determining its winner in case of a tie - it is for sure not backed up by rules and is for sure against common sense

@Mike Newman
Exactly - and what are the rules saying?

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#19 by Groefte , Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:25 pm

The question is this
If you look at penalty points as something on top of capped points(just like a soft score), capped points becomes a relevant tiebreak.
If you look at penalty points as directly removing capped points, capped points is not a relevant tiebreak.

To me this was the real decision the jugde's had to make on the fly. everything else aside I would have made the same ruling.

With all the other uncertainties of the rulepack vs. consensus and Poland winning other possible tiebreakers I can understand the frustration, I dont think the decision is as clearcut as some would like to make it out, but still the decision I would have made as well. - I see no evidence of bias or Poland being robbed - its just a hard choice that will end up with one contry feeling bad.

Events afterwards makes the above kind of a moot point but thats for another thread.

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#20 by Mike Newman , Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:31 pm

Its also worth noting that to rule as Poland see it should have been you are effectively saying

In the case of a draw, the team with the MOST amount of penalties wins

Which is why I believe using uncapped is the obvious choice


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#21 by Laik , Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:32 pm

I agree with Wilhelm - the decision was made on spot - not backed up by the rules - it was decided that the team that lost a direct game, had less points and easier match-ups will win, because? (Penalties for team Poland were counted twice - first from total points, creating a draw - which is tottaly fine with the rules, and again for a tie breaker where no rules backs it up.


@Mike Newman
You see an issue with Laik thinks, everyone else thinks - shoukdnt it be that the rules are saying? Because according to the rules we've won with Victory Points, which is not fine - the capped points are more important.

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#22 by le_blub , Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:46 pm

@Laik, read the rules again regarding penalties. Both the yellow card penalties, as the army list penalties are added to the final score of the team. This means, that at the end of the tournament all teams, who got penalties like these, had their final score (which is the capped score btw) modivied by these points.

The tournament pack is quite clear in this regard.

-le_blub AUT

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#23 by Groefte , Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:47 pm

@Laik, as I said i can understand your frustration, more so when you mix the different questions but, the destinction total points /capped points is not as clear as you make it, many consider it the same. I agree it is not clear cut and I think your best argument is that penalties are not efecting MU process.
Im still of the mind that penalty points remove capped points and that capped points = total points though.

The argument Mike makes above for why you intend for the system to be like that is IMO solid (the intention of the system is what I think you are trying to deduct when deciding this issue)

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#24 by lagerlof , Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:59 pm

All penalties are applied to the Capped Points (this is the same system we used in Salamanca last year). Applying penalties to the uncapped points have almost no impact. So effectively this means a team will have less Capped Points then it actually has, and you could have less than 60x6 capped BP if you were capped every round and then applied penalties to that.

They are not applied during the tournament, meaning that the penalties for late results and errors in lists did not affect any pairings, otherwise getting a penalty could mean you got an easier opponent. All penalties for Yellow Cards were applied at the end, because having a yellow card was "hidden", and not for public shaming.

Some penalties were visible during the event, this was to show that they meant serious business with late reports of the results.

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#25 by Laik , Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:02 pm

I've read rulespack - and I see no Information that penalties count to capped points.

I think we were at the tournament were points matter, and capped points were introduced to make it more fair.

Lagerlof I don't know why you even mention connection of uncapped points with penalties - no one does so where does it came from.

Can anyone who says I'm wrong would quote rules here and that would close the topic.

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#26 by Marko , Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:07 pm

Quote: Laik wrote in post #25
I've read rulespack - and I see no Information that penalties count to capped points.


That is why the Refs made that decision at the event. I believe the Ref statement is being prepared as we speak. When it will be available and to whom outside of the Chairmen and potentially Captians Council I do not know.


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#27 by Mike Newman , Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:10 pm

In my mind as much as the debate rages on the issue is closed

Whether you agree rightly or wrongly - Spain won the ETC. They were awarded the trophy and have had it confirmed by the chairmen.


Its of worth noting that Poland are the only nation I have seen to disagree with the result. And most of us here are trying to explain to Poland why we think it is like it should be. Because we know you are hurting and we actually count you as friends.


And there is a seperate issue of the behaviour afterwards, which is for a different thread.


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#28 by lagerlof , Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:14 pm

@Laik

It's true the rules pack does not define this.

The Judges saw this and took the decision about it before game 1, they also informed all the Team Captains about this at the Captains Meeting, that penalties will be applied to the Capped Points.

Their statement is written, not sure if they have posted it anywhere as of right now though. From what I could read it should be available since the Chairmen have posted their statement.

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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#29 by van der Loo , Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:19 pm

@lagerlof

Our statement is only available to the Chairmen at the moment, when they are done with it im sure it will be published, but for now we have to respect the Chairmen's decision on keeping the statement hidden.


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RE: Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner

#30 by Winter , Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:31 pm

Digressing from the topic at hand, whether or not Poland should have won.

Mike Newman has said = "Its of worth noting that Poland are the only nation I have seen to disagree with the result. And most of us here are trying to explain to Poland why we think it is like it should be. Because we know you are hurting and we actually count you as friends. "

If 7 wolves vote to eat a sheep, sheeps opinion on that matter suppose to matter less due to the fact that she is the only one not agreeing on what was decided? Obviously not. Comment like this, made by a person holding a power, feels redundant if not a little bit concerning because it makes it sound like you're telling polish side that their argument would matter more if someone else agreed with them, which is very, very dangerous path to take. And definitely not a merit on which we should judge an argument. I sincerely believe that this is not a case, but both sides should refrain from making comments like this.

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