Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#1 by Crusader PL , Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:18 pm

Hello everyone, here is a statement from Team Poland re: ETC 2018.

1. First of all big congratulations to Spain.
Great team and great performance on their part. They played very well this weekend!

2. Award ceremony absence of our team.
It was not made on purpose. This is the situation in correct order of events. We were cheering our victory then we learned that we received penalty for something we didn't know about. After that penalty there was a tie between us and Spain. Judges resolved the tie in favour for Spain by looking at what tourneykeeper showed as final result. We looked at the rules pack and it stated what was a priority for determining a winner in case of a tie. That meant that we should have a first place. We showed that to the judge but he was not willing at first to even speak with us. We fought on cause we believed the rules were in our favour. Then there was a gathering of judges to discuss this situation and if the results should be changed. At this point our whole team gathered near judges table waiting for the decision - focused on them and full of mixed emotions. The referees were discussing potential change of results and even stopped filling out award diplomas (did anyone noticed they were not given during award ceremony?). We were sure that award ceremony will be paused. Suddenly from a distance we saw that Germany entered a stage for a third place (Congratulation guys!). We were a little confused so Tomek, Shino and myself run near the stage. When they called us for second place we didn't know what to do. It was spontaneous to enter the stage so there would be less confusion for the ceremony. We had no time to even think. It was not intentional that rest of our team stayed at judges table waiting for overturn of results which we believe should have happened according to the rulespack. I was confused people from other countries approached me congratulating me for entering a stage. It was impossible for me to tell everyone what happened and that it was not a boycott.

3. "Konrad situation".
I will also describe what happened cause I heard versions of that story which are not true. First version that I heard about is that Konrad attacked Fjugin and his wife. I was shocked and saddened because I know him as a calm person. First of all he never touched a wife of Fujin which many people thought. Then I heard what he said exactly and other guy from Sweden posted it already on forum. Konrad went up to Fjugin and told him he's the worst and most biased judge he ever saw, and he told his wife that her husband is a horrible person. Please keep in mind that his wife is not family member from outside but she is part of 9th age team and Konrad previously had contact with her. Of course it is offensive but I don't know if this is a cultural difference thing but I don't find this words very offensive and deserving a card. We believe banning Konrad from ETC is too harsh for this kind of words. We felt hurt by a referee (and we still are) and this is how he reacted. He verbally stated his opinion in aggressive manner. Please also keep in mind that he said that not only because of this situation but also with connection to his other decisions during battles. We are surprised that banvote is considered. We think it is because people thought that he attacked Fujin's wife. I played on 12th ETC and in the past there were situations were whole teams were screaming at each other, there was cheated dice incident or people caught moving their units in opponents turn when he was not watching. None of this situations ended with a ban.

4. ETC 2018 had a rulespack. The rulespack stated rules on tie breakers. There are two entries there that I would like to bring to your attention.

. Winning the Tournament - singles

The winner will be calculated based on the total amount of battle points combined with penalties. In the case of a tie the battle points will be used to determine the winner. If there is still a tie the Victory Points will be used to determine the winner. If there is still a tie the winner will be determined by a coin flip.

------------------

Winning the Tournament - teams

The winning team will be determined based on the total amount of battle points combined with the total score for potential hobby points.
The maximum amount of battle points per round is 100 and the minimum amount of battle points per round is 60 for 8 man team.
In the case of a tie the victory points will be used to determine the winner.
If there is still a tie the victory points will be used to determine the winner. (sic)
If there is still a tie the winner will be determined by a coin flip.

This rulespack was created by judges & chairmen and was available during and before the event. Directly before the event the judges gave a copy of this rulespack to every captain.

At the end of the event the tables looked like this:
country / vp / penalties / BP_uncapped / BP_capped / final score
Spain 32074 -2 639 568 566
Poland 92539 -3 603 569 566

Given those results:

A. Poland had more VP than Spain. The wording may be off, but the rulespack is clear on the matter. You look at VP's. The wording allows to point to the winner. There was no technical reason to change it.

B. Assuming that the wording in rulespack was wrong, the only possible way forward without disturbance is to use a precedence / analogy. And in this case we have an example. Same pack mentions that the order is for singles: final score > bp > vp

The capped and uncapped bp have to come instead of single bp. So the only logical alternative (if someone really wants to change the wording of the tournament pack while the tournament is in progress...) was to go:

final score > bp_capped > bp_uncapped > vp

5. To sum up, the account of events from Team Poland's perspective was as follows:
Team Poland was the winner.
Tourney Keeper algorithm was wrong and made incorrect sorting.
We informed the judges about this fact.
When we presented the information to the judges, we weren't given any response why the rulespack was changed.
Then we received no information on what algorithm was used and on what legal basis.
When we inquired further, pointing to the lines in rulespack, the reaction of referee Fjugin was that of throwing the rulespack on the table in frustration.

Team Poland would kindly ask to receive information on:
what algorithm was used and on what legal basis?
Why was the rulespack changed?
Is it judges responsibility to change the rulespack during the event?

Best Regards
Stanislaw on behalf of Team Poland


ETC for life!

2017 Team Poland cherleader - got married

Team Poland Lizardman and Beastman - 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018

Team Russia Lizardman 2006

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RE: Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#2 by Orion , Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:42 pm

May I remind you that:

1. Using VPs as the first tie-breaker is an obvious copy and paste mistake from using the singles event wording (in team events everyone knows that uncapped BPs is ALWAYS the first tie-breaker).

2. A lot of Team Spain players didnt even bother to hand in their VPs as they know that in a team event its uncapped BPs that count in case of tie-breaker. Take their team top scorer for example, Miguel Calderon. He entered ZERO victory points in 5 of his 6 games at the ETC, despite winning some of them 20-0. He had a total of 1010 VPs after getting 100 out of 120 BPs in 6 games. he wasnt the only one in the team.


You guys basically wanted to win the event on a copy and paste mistake in the rules pack and a lack of third tie-breaker points input on Tourneykeeper by some spanish players. And thats when the judges realized this and thats why they ruled that uncapped BPs had to be used as a tie-breaker.

So please, tell the WHOLE story and not just your side.


Also, regarding Konrad; I didnt see any altercation with Erik´s wife (probably the nicest person in that whole Arena), BUT... I did witness with my own 2 eyes how Konrad towered over Erik (physically bumping him as if trying to start a fight in high school). Also... no one has yet mentioned Furion. Year after year almost every single opponent he plays against complains about him and there are many reports of him trying to get away with cheating. This is not acceptable and he must be dealt with.



In case anyone asks, I have played for Australia 4 years between 2014 and 2017 (vice-captain last year) and played for Latvia as a merc this year. Ive also worked on the Ogre book on T9 Age proyect from day 1 and on the Balance team along side Konrad for almost 2 years.

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RE: Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#3 by Tom Mawdsley , Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:53 pm

Stanislaw, thanks for the statement, although, as mentioned above it feels very much like a grasp at straws to rely on an obvious mistake from the rules pack to try and justify your team winning the event. You've been to enough ETC's (as mentioned in your signature) to know that Victory Points is never used as the first Tie-Break for the teams event, and had you been on the opposite side of this argument you would be taking the opposite viewpoint.

I was stood very close to Erik's wife during the incident with Konrad, where he walked by her extremely closely, almost looking to bump into her on purpose. He said something directly to her face and walked away. I was not close enough to hear exactly what was said, but she looked visibly shaken and walked over to the judges table immediately. You seem to be justifying this altercation based on the fact that she is also a member of the T9A team, which is an awful justification for outright deplorable behaviour from one of the Polish players.

Tom Mawdsley
T9A Team England

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RE: Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#4 by Fjugin , Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:59 pm

Quote: Orion wrote in post #2

2. A lot of Team Spain players didnt even bother to hand in their VPs as they know that in a team event its uncapped BPs that count in case of tie-breaker. Take their team top scorer for example, Miguel Calderon. He entered ZERO victory points in 5 of his 6 games at the ETC, despite winning some of them 20-0. He had a total of 1010 VPs after getting 100 out of 120 BPs in 6 games. he wasnt the only one in the team.

Even Poland themselves did not enter VPs in all their games


ETC judge 2018

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RE: Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#5 by eggsPR , Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:30 pm

In 2017, Team USA finished with a 3-way tie with Russia and Denmark on 513 capped BPs for 3rd place.

Russia, Denmark and USA took 3rd, 4th, and 5th place respectively with uncapped BPs of 533, 529, and 513, respectively.

Though, judging by VPs, USA had the most VPs with 102,462

Never once did Team USA even remotely consider using VPs to try and jump teams with more uncapped BPs. It's just common sense. Isn't it?|addpics|lyw-1-7e7c.png|/addpics|


2012 ETC Ireland
2013 ETC Ireland
2014 ETC Wales
2015 ETC USA
2016 ETC USA (c)
2017 ETC USA (c)
2018 ETC USA (c)

 
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RE: Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#6 by SmithF , Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:37 pm

Agreed.

The same common sense that dictates that someone who verbally or physically abuses spectators and/or referees should not be allowed to play the game, until he has proven he is a grown up and can behave as one.
The first thing to do would be to apologize to the offended parties, but even then I do think that the powers that be should think long and hard about how to sanction said behavior.


Belgium T9A ETC Player 2016 (SE), 2017 (SE), 2018 (DH)

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RE: Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#7 by Crusader PL , Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:41 pm

Guys, you don't understand. We know that there is a mistake in rulepack. It's not about exploiting a mistake.

We believe that BP should be used to determine the winner because in singles pack there is written final score > bp > vp . It is uncertain which bp should be used. But other passage claims that "The maximum amount of battle points per round is 100 [...]". Spain wins on BP uncapped and Poland wins on BP capped.

We obviously don't want to take away 1st place from Spanish team. We just wanted judges to acknowledge their mistake and hopefully make an exception and assign double 1st place. As the rulepack doesn't state Spain as winner over us and decision to make them a winner was not based on rules.


ETC for life!

2017 Team Poland cherleader - got married

Team Poland Lizardman and Beastman - 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018

Team Russia Lizardman 2006

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RE: Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#8 by Orion , Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:59 pm

But the ESC and ETC are two completely unrelated events tbh, and you cannot use the same rules for one event as the other.

This is what the rules pack says in case of a tie in the team event:


In the case of a tie the victory points will be used to determine the winner, if there is still a tie the victory points will be used to determine the winner, if there is still a tie the winner will be determined by a coin flip.


The first text in underlined bold is the copy and paste mistake (it uses VPs TWICE as a tie-breaker). Its supposed to say Uncapped Battle Points (as has always been the case in team tournaments AND in previous ETCs, example; EggsPR´s example of triple tie between 3 countries last year).

And that is the truth right there; capped BPs > uncapped BPs > VPs > coin toss.

You are somehow trying to state that it is this: capped BPs > capped BPs without penalties > uncapped BPs > VPs > coin toss.


I dont know where you get that capped BPs without penalties should somehow be introduced in the equation. Penalties are there for a reason: TO PENALIZE... not to help win in case of ties.

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RE: Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#9 by lagerlof , Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:06 pm

Poland does not win on BP Capped?

You had the same amount, after the penalty for yellow cards was applied.

That's why spain won, because they won uncapped points as tie break. Otherwise this discussion wouldn't even exist.

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RE: Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#10 by van der Loo , Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:10 pm

Hey

First of all, as the Danish judge i understand your frustrations, believe me it was not an easy decision to make on the spot for us either, but i still think we made the right one.

Secondly, you did know about the penalty, Erik and i gave Aleksander Jaworowski a yellow card so there is no way you didn't knew about it, and as it was the second yellow card for the team then it comes with a penalty. The penalties for yellow cards was applied at the end of the event just like we did to the danish team that also received 2 yellow cards, so there is no special treatment or biased against you.

Third, Erik didn't do this alone, i was just as much in it, so if you have any grudge against him you might aswell have it against me. As a judge im not there to be liked by all players, im there to make a decision when needed and that is what we did. I understand that you don't agree but i still think it was the right one.

-Sune van der Loo


2018 ETC Ref

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RE: Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

#11 by James Brown , Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:27 am

I think this is the most worrying part of this post.

“ Of course it is offensive but I don't know if this is a cultural difference thing but I don't find this words very offensive and deserving a card. We believe banning Konrad from ETC is too harsh for this kind of words. We felt hurt by a referee (and we still are) and this is how he reacted. He verbally stated his opinion in aggressive manner. Please also keep in mind that he said that not only because of this situation but also with connection to his other decisions during battles.”

To put this behaviour down to a cultural difference and defend it is disappointing.

Regarding a ban or red card below is the Fifa criteria. I think it has been admitted in this post and with other witness statements that “using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures” was met. I see no justification for this. As being upset over losing ETC doesn’t cut it.


Sending-off offences
A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the
following seven offences:
• serious foul play
• violent conduct
• spitting at an opponent or any other person
• denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity
by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within
his own penalty area)
• denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving
towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a
penalty kick
• using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
• receiving a second caution in the same match
A player, substitute or substituted player who has been sent off must leave the
vicinity of the fi eld of play and the technical area.


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NZ ETC Captain 2019

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Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - including winner
Tournament-Pack 2018 - T9A

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