RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#136 by Bosje , Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:41 pm

Quote: Mike (Santa) Klaka wrote in post #135
I really like the 'only one formation' rule the committee have come up with but there is possible room for confusion.

I suggest that where a card stipulates the formation structure (e.g. a Humber armoured car formation) then it is an 'original' formation so different but where the card just changes certain ratings (e.g. White Knees or Guards) then it still counts as the original formation. Would this be clear? What do people think?

Mike

I would say fair, but how would one go about the Luftwaffe Field Company for example? It changes stats, but also stipulates the organisation of the company by not allowing certain choices.

I'm not trying to be picky here, I think the rule is good, but there are just a few details about it that I'd like to see answered.


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#137 by 96mgb , Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:26 am

These are the same formation. The formation it counts as is listed in the brackets at the bottom of the command card.

Eg in Ghost Panzers the SS-armoured panzergrenadier card makes your panzergrenadier formation fearless. On the card the rules say German build formation (armoured Panzer grenadier). Therefore this counts as your use of the armoured Panzer grenadier formation.

In your example of the Luftwaffe field division the formation in brackets is the grenadier formation so this would mean no other player can field a grenadier formation.


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Last edited 12.10.2018 | Top

RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#138 by Angelfred , Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:36 pm

Guys, if points allow, can a player plays 3 or 4 Formations of the same Nation in the same list, counting as only 1 "Nation" choice ?
For instance : ITALIAN with AB41, L6/40, Carri and Bersaglieri.

Or is it max 2 formations per list ?

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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#139 by Doktor Helge , Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:39 pm

a player can have as many formations as he wants (and have points for)
Them limit on number of nations nations is per team


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#140 by Doktor Helge , Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:46 pm

UPDATE:

The Rulespack in its present form is posted here.
Issues such as command cards and who can use which will hopefully be cleared in the next LFTF (rumors are that it will be adressed)
Issues with terrain is not stricktly the rulespack so it will not be part of the generic rules pack.



Rulespack Draft ETC FOW 2019:
_____________________________________________________

Formations and units allowed:

Any V.4 MW formation or unit that has been incorporated into forcesofwar before the 1. may will be allowed
_____________________________________________________

List submissiosn:

Lists MUST have the following in the name as the first thing in the list name: Country - Player Last Name, Player First name.
Other stuff such as type of force is not mandatory... but nice to have

After the deadline, all the rosters will be distributed to each captain who submitted his team's lists on time.
The lists will be checked by the FoW Captain's Council, and any necessary changes made ASAP with minimal changes to the list.

List checking deadline will be July 7th.

______________________________________________________

Rulespack Team Matchup:
- Each team will recieve 6 player force cards, showing the player name and what formations his force contains.
- Each team will recieve 6 card sleeves with a battleplan fixed to it.
2 x attack 2 x Maneuvre 2 x Defend.
The text has to be on the inner side of the card Sleeve, making it hidden when a card is in the Sleeve..
- The missions for each round is preselected before ETC
- Before each round's matchup. The player force cards are put into the sleeves, showing the force cards, but consealing the battleplan. thus the battleplan of the individual player force is hidden (much like in an ordinary V.4 game).
-The matchup is now done using the following system:

1.Team A puts up one if its 6 armies, Team B does the same.
2.Team A puts up two armies against the one put up by Team B, Team B does the same.
3.Team A chooses one of the two armies put up by Team B to be played against their army first put up by team A . this is the first matchup. Team B does the same.
4.The armies that did not get chosen return to the team pool.
5.Team A puts up one if its 4 remaining armies, Team B does the same.
6.Team A puts up two armies against the one put up by Team B, Team B does the same.
7.Team A chooses one of the two armies put up by Team B to be played against the army first put
up by team A and determines one pair, Team B does the same.
8.The army of Team A that did not get chosen by team B plays against the last army remaining in
the pool of Team B. The army of Team B that did not get chosen by team A plays against the last army remaining in the pool of Team A.
9. the Battleplans are now revealed, determining who attacks and defends, in case of the same battleplan, attacker and defender is determined by roll off
10.The table for each pairing will now be randomly drawn.

_____________________________________________________
Rulespack building the force:
Team composition:
- A maximum of two players can field formations from the same nation (An allied formation counts as 1 use of that nationality)
- No formation may be repeated, this also goes for formations with the same name such as a panzer grenadier formation. If the name is different eg mixed tankovy vs mixed tankovy (late) they are separate formations.
An upgraded formation.. such as a "Grenadier Formation" upgraded to SS, still counts as a "Grenadier formation", therefore no other player can take the "Grenadier formation".
- Command cards may not be repeated by 2 players, an individual player may repeat command cards if allowed by the card, by no other player on the team may use the same command card

Individual force composition:
- 100 point limit on lists (this includes command cards)
- There is no limit to the number of formations a player can field
- The List MUST be produced on forces to make checking it easier
- The Player must bring at least 1 photocopy of the list being played
- Unit cards and command cards must be brought along with the list, to make it faster and easier to play (A photocopy can be used)
- Player submitted units on battlefronts homepage can be used, IF the are added to forces

_____________________________________________________

Missions:
Schedule and Missions – During each round, all players will play the same mission. Missions will be drawn from the “More Missions” pdf (https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=5507) and they will be selected immediately after the list due date and will be published at that time.
Two of each of the following groups of missions will be selected:
- Dust-up, Encounter, Free for All
- Bridgehead, No Retreat, Rearguard;
- Breakthrough, Counterattack, Contact;
- The Friday afternoon and Saturday afternoon games will be defensive battles. If Rearguard is played it must go the full nine turns (unless the attacker wins earlier) regardless of time taken.

______________________________________________________

Point Scoring system:

Scoring System: Standard version 4 Flames of War scoring, the winner gets 8 points, the loser gets 1 point, and this is then adjusted based on how many platoons the loser manages to kill, and if any important historically figures met their end on the battlefield. There are no draws, so if neither player wins a fair fight then both score as if they lost. Also, any game where the appropriate number of turns (9 turns for Rearguard) have not been played AND victory conditions are not met will be classed as a mutual loss.
The points scored in each game are added to team's score and are recorded as Small Points (SP). If a player wins a game then a Big Point (BP) is added to the team's score as well.
The leader board will be sorted primarily by BPs, and then by SPs.

4.If the game result would be decided at the start of the next turn, players should check the victory
conditions for the start of the next turn as per Sudden Death rules i.e.: the player that went first
check victory conditions i.e. sole survivor, company morale, possessing enemy objective as if the
turn has started and has been played.

________________________________________________________

Time alloted for games:

1.Each round will last for 3.5 hours. This includes the time for the pairings process which must be
completed within 30 minutes.
2.Any players not paired after 30 minutes should be randomly paired.
3.Both Players must get the same number of turns played. There will be an overtime period of up
to 10 minutes available to give the player who went second the opportunity to catch up.

________________________________________________________

Rules/Issues Resolution:
1. Players should first consult the rule book and unit cards, and the LFTF. Go over the rule/issue step-by-step together to see if a solution can be found.
2. If this doesn’t work, call over both team captains and have each player (if needed) explain the situation and show the relevant section in the rules. Allow the two captains to discuss to see if they can reach consensus.
3. Call a referee. This can be either one of the official referees or one of the player/captain referees. The only requirement is that the referee cannot be from one of the countries involved in the rules/issue discussion.
4. Finally as the last resort, for issues that cannot be resolved by any of the above escalations, call a panel of three referees (official or player, and again, not from either country involved in the discussion). Explain the issue, the three referees deliberate, majority referee decision is implemented.


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Last edited 12.10.2018 | Top

RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#141 by Mike (Santa) Klaka , Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:45 pm

I like most of the proposed rules pack but am not keen on the 'sleeves' system for allocating Battle Plans. It makes the draw very random and takes up valuable game time. Alternatives :-

1. If we prefer a randomised system then have each captain put their lists in order 1 to 6 when submitting them and the order is fixed. Number 1 plays the opposing number 1, number 2 plays number 2 etc. This would save a lot of time and put me out of a job .

2.Some people like the draw to add a touch of strategy, this could be a whole lot simpler if you submit 2 lists as Attack, 2 as Manoeuvre and 2 as Defend when submitting the lists (so it would be fixed). This is much closer to what we did when playing v3.

3. A further alternative is in the rules (page 101 who attacks, option 3) which has the person who has most Infantry Formations in his force defends, if the same you dice off - similar to the old version 3 draw but not as sophisticated. You could refine this by adding 'if both players have the same number of Infantry formations then the player with the most tank formations attacks, if still a draw dice off. All the Formations in the Books are labelled as either Tank or Infantry but those derived from cards are not labelled so the simple solution would be if the formation is not listed as either Tank or Infantry then if the HQ contains infantry stands it is an infantry formation, otherwise it is a tank formation. This definition also covers the pack if BF release a new Book(s) before the cutoff date but omit the infantry or tank label..

Personally I like the alternative number 2 above as it is simple, does not require any printed sleeves, is easy to understand and very similar to the v3 version of the draw (but no Auto defend or auto Attack). My second choice would be either number 1 or number 3 as I think the card sleeves are a pain.

What do others think?

Mike.


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#142 by 96mgb , Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:06 pm

Mike,

The committee has debated several ways for selection there was a lot of discussion of straight battleplans with strong voices for and against. Eventually we agreed we needed a middle ground. Last years system was looked at as well as finding a way to go back to the V3 system and seeing if we could assign a Inf,mech, tank aspect. Fundermentally the way MW works with its list structure, cards and balance/design makes it a somewhat different beast to the stop gap rules of EW. What we agreed was that we want a system that

- remains true to the team strategy aspect.
- allows fixed missions
- incorporates the spirit of battle plans around which the game is tested and balanced.

Therefore this is what we have selected. It will of course be for the captains to vote but rest assured other options were discussed and actually for the longest of any aspect of the pack. Such was the feeling in various camps but we all come together with this idea in the end. This is also the same system we selected on the original draft rulepac we posted a few months ago. We even went back and discussed further after some feedback but still feel this the way forward.


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Last edited 12.10.2018 | Top

RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#143 by Angelfred , Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:38 pm

Guys,

Quick comment : last year, the battleplans were shown at the beginning of the pair up process (both Teams allocates battleplans, and then reveal, prior to pair up).
Last year, it worked fine.
Last year, we also had a debate on the interests of concealing or not the battleplans.
What comes out of it was it was too random not to have the battleplans revealed at the beginning of the pair up, because you don't pair up the same if you know your opponent is defending or attacking or manoeuvring.
What changes this year so that battleplans are now reveal at step 9 ?
It's a little bit poker no ?

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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#144 by 96mgb , Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:23 pm

Fred,

In short we discussed last year and also discussed the fact that armies in Mw look different that what is a stop gap rule system (EW) not specifically designed for the ruleset (companies look very different and have a much broader choice for instance). What processes for match up which may work for EW doesn’t nessessarly work in MW.

We (the committee) also agreed we wanted to move closer to battleplans which are a key component of the game however we equally agreed full battleplans was impractical.

Last year we had to make quick descisions based on limited exposure to the game and now we know a bit more.

In choosing the blind stance match up (to be clear you know the armies you are matching against) We also looked at choosing a battleplans at the table after match up but this diluted the matchup process too much. A team was less rewarded for a careful and successful match up plan. This was a agreeable middle ground.

Equally we considered the spirit of the ETC and the fundermental need to produce good fun games (I’m sure 99% would agree this). The ultimate risk with the MW stances and fixed missions is a tank army defending in a deep reserve battle (of which 1/3 of games could be). Fixed stances known before match up makes attacking with infantry against tanks to viable in these situations. In essence you could a 50% chance of attacking with more than 40% in reserve for the defender. Some lists can mitigate this more than others depending on options but then you limit effective choice for armour. A blind match makes this situation less likely. The thought of a team traveling and spending a lot of money to hve one of these games has to be considered when weighing options (not by far the only reason but pause for thought).

The blind match up is different to last year however it will bring with it new strategies and challenges to teams. Glass half full mate :-). As for a little bit poker you could argue any match up process ever used at ETC is poker hence it’s importance.

As I say we have considered various options and even reconsidered after yours and others feedbacks but as a group of individuals trusted to produce this from a mix of backgrounds this is what we have decided.

We put the same proposal up at captains request a couple of months ago so it could be tested. We have no testing feedback showing why this wouldn’t be an effective system. Therefore after rediscussion this is what we have selected.


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Last edited 12.10.2018 | Top

RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#145 by Angelfred , Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:26 pm

Matt, thank you for the explanations.
Clear.
Let's work on that then :)

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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#146 by DaveM , Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:34 pm

I have always detested the matchup process and this doesn't change my mind.
I prefer a "blind" 1-6 ordering of the team and match that to the opponents 1-6.
I know many teams insist the matchup process is a key part of the ETC and it at least made sense to all of us under V3 but V4 and battleplans have so muddied the waters that I have no interest in the process at all. Thankfully as Captain I can delegate the role to team mates.


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#147 by Jonny , Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:41 am

Regarding the card sleeves, aren't they going to be a bit of a pain to make? They'd have to be transparent on one side, opaque on the other, with the battle plan written on the inside of the opaque side. Wouldn't it be easier to just have 6 battle plan cards, and put the army (info side out) and the battle plan (info side in) in the same clear sleeve?


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#148 by 96mgb , Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:23 pm

Suppose that’s for the orga to sort?


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#149 by ReBrock , Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:42 pm

Just to make somethink clear: Is Reconnaissance Company from Ghost panzers Command Card considered the same formation with Armoured Panzergrenadier Company?
Thank you for the answer!

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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#150 by 96mgb , Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:30 pm

No as it’s a different name


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