RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#151 by Doktor Helge , Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:28 pm

After looking through some og the player submitted units (Especially the Panzer jager I) we had a debate and a vote in the rulespacks group and we have decided NOT to include player submitted units into the etc rules.. some are colorfull and balanced, but not all, so we have therefor decided to excude them all.

Flames Of war ETC Update
For you guys who are interested....
This is the working draft for the rulespack for Etc 2019 in Serbia
Issues such as command cards and who can use which will hopefully be cleared in the next LFTF
Rulespack Draft ETC FOW 2019:
_________________________________________________
Formations and units allowed:
Any V.4 MW formation or unit that has been incorporated into forcesofwar before the 1. may will be allowed, but opnly from the official books.
Player submitted formations and units will not be permitted

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List submission:
Lists must be submitted 1. July
Lists MUST have the following in the name as the first thing in the list name: Country - Player Last Name, Player First name.
Other stuff such as type of force is not mandatory... but nice to have
After the deadline, all the rosters will be distributed to each captain who submitted his team's lists on time. 
The lists will be checked by the FoW Captain's Council, and any necessary changes made ASAP with minimal changes to the list.
List checking deadline will be July 7th.
_________________________________________________
Rulespack Team Matchup:
- Each team will recieve 6 player force cards, showing the player name and what formations his force contains.
- Each team will recieve 6 card sleeves with a battleplan fixed to it.
2 x attack 2 x Maneuvre 2 x Defend.
The text has to be on the inner side of the card Sleeve, making it hidden when a card is in the Sleeve..
- The missions for each round is preselected before ETC 
- Before each round's matchup. The player force cards are put into the sleeves, showing the force cards, but consealing the battleplan. thus the battleplan of the individual player force is hidden (much like in an ordinary V.4 game).
-The matchup is now done using the following system:
1.Team A puts up one if its 6 armies, Team B does the same.
2.Team A puts up two armies against the one put up by Team B, Team B does the same.
3.Team A chooses one of the two armies put up by Team B to be played against their army first put up by team A . this is the first matchup. Team B does the same.
4.The armies that did not get chosen return to the team pool.
5.Team A puts up one if its 4 remaining armies, Team B does the same.
6.Team A puts up two armies against the one put up by Team B, Team B does the same.
7.Team A chooses one of the two armies put up by Team B to be played against the army first put
up by team A and determines one pair, Team B does the same.
8.The army of Team A that did not get chosen by team B plays against the last army remaining in
the pool of Team B. The army of Team B that did not get chosen by team A plays against the last army remaining in the pool of Team A.
9. the Battleplans are now revealed, determining who attacks and defends, in case of the same battleplan, attacker and defender is determined by roll off
10.The table for each pairing will now be randomly drawn.
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Rulespack building the force:
Team composition:
- A maximum of two players can field formations from the same nation (An allied formation counts as 1 use of that nationality)
- No formation may be repeated, this also goes for formations with the same name such as a panzer grenadier formation. If the name is different eg mixed tankovy vs mixed tankovy (late) they are separate formations.
An upgraded formation.. such as a "Grenadier Formation" upgraded to SS, still counts as a "Grenadier formation", therefore no other player can take the "Grenadier formation".
- Command cards may not be repeated by 2 players, an individual player may repeat command cards if allowed by the card, by no other player on the team may use the same command card
Individual force composition:
- 100 point limit on lists (this includes command cards)
- There is no limit to the number of formations a player can field
- The List MUST be produced on forces to make checking it easier
- The Player must bring at least 1 photocopy of the list being played
- Unit cards and command cards must be brought along with the list, to make it faster and easier to play (A photocopy can be used)
- Player submitted formations and units on BF homepage will not be permitted, not even if they are in forcesofwar.
_________________________________________________
Missions:
Schedule and Missions Ė During each round, all players will play the same mission. Missions will be drawn from the ďMore MissionsĒ pdf (https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=5507)
and they will be selected immediately after the list due date and will be published at that time.
Two of each of the following groups of missions will be selected:
- Dust-up, Encounter, Free for All 
- Bridgehead, No Retreat, Rearguard;
- Breakthrough, Counterattack, Contact;
- The Friday afternoon and Saturday afternoon games will be defensive battles. If Rearguard is played it must go the full nine turns (unless the attacker wins earlier) regardless of time taken.
- Fog Of war Will not be used
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Point Scoring system:
Scoring System: Standard version 4 Flames of War scoring, the winner gets 8 points, the loser gets 1 point, and this is then adjusted based on how many platoons the loser manages to kill, and if any important historically figures met their end on the battlefield. There are no draws, so if neither player wins a fair fight then both score as if they lost. Also, any game where the appropriate number of turns (9 turns for Rearguard) have not been played AND victory conditions are not met will be classed as a mutual loss.
The points scored in each game are added to team's score and are recorded as Small Points (SP). If a player wins a game then a Big Point (BP) is added to the team's score as well.
The leader board will be sorted primarily by BPs, and then by SPs.
4.If the game result would be decided at the start of the next turn, players should check the victory
conditions for the start of the next turn as per Sudden Death rules i.e.: the player that went first
check victory conditions i.e. sole survivor, company morale, possessing enemy objective as if the
turn has started and has been played.
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Time alloted for games:
1.Each round will last for 3.5 hours. This includes the time for the pairings process which must be
completed within 30 minutes.
2.Any players not paired after 30 minutes should be randomly paired.
3.Both Players must get the same number of turns played. There will be an overtime period of up
to 10 minutes available to give the player who went second the opportunity to catch up.
_________________________________________________
Rules/Issues Resolution:
1. Players should first consult the rule book and unit cards, and the LFTF. Go over the rule/issue step-by-step together to see if a solution can be found.
2. If this doesnít work, call over both team captains and have each player (if needed) explain the situation and show the relevant section in the rules. Allow the two captains to discuss to see if they can reach consensus.
3. Call a referee. This can be either one of the official referees or one of the player/captain referees. The only requirement is that the referee cannot be from one of the countries involved in the rules/issue discussion.
4. Finally as the last resort, for issues that cannot be resolved by any of the above escalations, call a panel of three referees (official or player, and again, not from either country involved in the discussion). Explain the issue, the three referees deliberate, majority referee decision is implemented.


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#152 by ReBrock , Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:10 pm

Quote: 96mgb wrote in post #150
No as it’s a different name

The can you also take panzer grenadiers with the SD KFZ card, option?

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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#153 by Jonny , Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:16 am

Quote: Doktor Helge wrote in post #151
After looking through some og the player submitted units (Especially the Panzer jager I) we had a debate and a vote in the rulespacks group and we have decided NOT to include player submitted units into the etc rules.. some are colorfull and balanced, but not all, so we have therefor decided to excude them all.

I'm surprised at this. Can you share which cards you found unbalanced, they all seemed okay to me?


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#154 by Angelfred , Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:19 am

@Helge : I believe the topic had been well thought about, yet I'm wondering : is it because of the risk of what players may submit in the future ?
Because, at the moment, all the cards that had been produced are so far balanced or under powered.

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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#155 by 96mgb , Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:38 am

Angel take the Panzer jäger as an example. While we may think that the points are balanced can you hand on heart think that the options of how they are included in the force have been thought through. How that affects play etc?

Also as itís all or nothing (we canít be voting on every card) if it was added to the rulepack to allow them them future cards which may be even crazier would be in.

Next even if allowed they would have to be added to forces and odds are pretty slim. Having teams plan a list get to 1 May and find out their list isnít allowed isnít good.

Bottom line these are player made cards without testing by that are not Ďofficalí and the only thing BF says is that they wonít braak a normal game. This isnít a normal home game this is the top end of competive play.

Oh and donít forget whatís to stop a ETC player trying to get a new unit added for their own use as they want a particular capability. Timing it so itís released near the May deadline.

Itís a massive can of untested I offical worms for a competive event.


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#156 by Angelfred , Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:40 am

@Matt : understood.
Just a little bit sad that the options are shrinking again.
But I get both your points buddy.

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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#157 by Mongol , Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:22 am

After SU-76 formation release I honestly think that everything is fine with player submitted cards =)
Just fix Panzerjager and they will do


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Last edited 12.19.2018 | Top

RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#158 by Floody , Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:47 am

The Su-76 company isn't a community card. It's a card they fucked up on printing and have now done a digital release.

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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#159 by Jonny , Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:27 pm

I don't see what the fuss is about the PzJg 1, it's a decent unit, but I don't think it's autotake.


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#160 by Angelfred , Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:28 pm

My two cents.

I confirm the SU76 Regiment was a Command Card that had been playtested and was originally in the Command Cards pack from Red Banner.
Thus no reason not to include it...

Concerning players made Cards, I do understand the concern from the Comittee.
BF is not much connected with the game, thus they may provide one or several player cards in the future that are not balanced.
The players cards are not playtested.
Fortunately, so far, the one produced are not unbalanced.
We may argue that GER don't need another Tank Hunter, but honestly, I doubt anyone can state the US 75mm TD or 105mm artillery or Infantry Recon are unbalanced. Same goes for the overpriced Sexton and the Matilda.
Thus either voting on each card or ban them all.

Personnal perspective : MW is scarce in term of lists to be brought, especially for this 6-players team event.
The players cards can provide additionnal alternatives...

Cheers from France,

Fred

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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#161 by 96mgb , Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:42 pm

There is zero issue with the SU76 card it was missed and will be added to forces.

The player card issue isnít just about now itís about whatís coming up. If itís allowed in the ratified rule pack you lose any control over what is semi uncontrolled content not designed for competive play with no testing. Plus itís not on forces and BF have said itís now unlikely so it wonít be allowed anyway. Better to draw a line then have confusion and uncertainty about whether they will arrive.


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#162 by Mongol , Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:49 pm

Guys, thanks, I know they forgot those cards, already laughed at that.
My point was that those SU-76 formations (mixed and just su76) are so "well" balanced that community cards look rather fine near them.
Think only the way they are included should be restricted somehow, the rest are more than fine.


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#163 by Arkon , Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:03 pm

May I have two Carri Formations in one list?


In general, is there any limitation on the number of the same formation if it is fielded by one player?


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Last edited 12.30.2018 | Top

RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#164 by 96mgb , Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:31 pm

No afraid not itís 1 use of a formation only.


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RE: Midwar 2019 rulespack

#165 by Arkon , Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:04 pm

As I can see this is only on proposal and not finaly voted on, Right?

It seems very strange that I cant take two carri formations although its an official choice you can make with the army book.


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Last edited 12.30.2018 | Top

   

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