RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#46 by Spectator , Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:02 pm

As I know things get deleted here I will paste what's in other thread. Read this please and tell me about what's decent/ sportsmanlike

Hi All, I just wanted to sum up all facts for you:
Fact1. Rules stated that vp should be used as tie breaker
Fact2. Refs ignored fact1
Fact3. Refs ignored fact1 when it was pointed out to them i.e. they were fully aware of the rules
Fact4. Rules do not state anywhere that yellow cards also impact battle point score
Fact5. Refs decided that yellow cards will impact bp during the tournament. If that was communicated beforehqnd remains unclear
Fact6. Team Poland won all games
Fact7. Team Spain did not win all games. They lost to Poland
Fact8. There was a penalty applied to team Poland after the end of tournament based on so called verbal assault
Fact9. "Verbal assault" was given privately as feedback to ref as private person commenting his performance
Fact10. It was repeated to refs wife
Fact11. Nothing else happened between Konrad and ref/his wife
Fact12. Teams are voting to ban Konrad based on facts 9-11
Fact13. Teams are not impartial here as the outcome of votr might affect their chances next year
Fact14. Chairmen backed up refs on their ignoting rhe rules
Fact15. Both chairmen and refs should be making sure that the rules are followed
Fact16. Most or all teams congratulated refs and chairmen job well done

Opinion1. Poland team is disliked. If that is because they are so good or so competitive or maybe rude is besides the point.

Fact17. Poland is constantly pointing out above gathered facts
Fact18. Most or all teams continue to ignore / disregard above facts.
Fact19. That might be controversial but I believe there are at least 2 lies in refs statement above: first about the rules:
"In the Tournament Pack there are 2 ways of determining a winner - one for singles and one for teams. Singles being:
1. battle points with soft scores and penalties 2. battle points 3. Victory points
(I.e. first two point agreeing with polish chairman's original claim, but 3rd differs*)
Teams being:
1. battle points 2. victory points 3. coin flip**"
That is a lie1 as the rules - by mistake or not - state that 1st tie breaker are vps
Lie2: A few minutes later the Polish captain comes up to the swedish ref in a very threatening manner and verbally insults him, the type of behavior that would have been an instant red card if it happened during the tournament.
So called verbal insult was nothing more than statement "you are terrible, biased ref".
I'd like to also highlight this part: "the type of behavior that would have been an instant red card if it happened during the tournament" which supports facts 8 and 9, namely it happened between 2 guys not acting as ref and team captain at that time. Which leads me to
Fact20. Ref abused his powers by penalising behaviour he had no right to penalise other than by calling the police if he felt offended
Fact21. Ref admits in his statement they wanted to punish team Poland in harshest possible way for the event outside of tournament ("Refs decide to give him a yellow card (because at this point in time yellow card is more harsh than red card). ")

Gravity of facts 20-21. To put it into context: imagine you argue on chat with ref before or after an evnet and you are not nice to him. He can as a result penalise your team on next or already ended event based on his mood.

Please read above. If you still believe everything was great I have nothing to add here.

Ps. Threats about ban to Konrad based on captains vote with diregard to rules is far more outrageous in my opinion than anything he said to ref regardless of how aggresively he did that as ultimately he only stated his opinon as private person to private person (not player to judge)
Ps2. Just to be clear: I have no idea how the game works, I ended up here accidentaly a d was fascinated by the heated discussion and yes, I am from. Poland which is why I concentrated on gathering facts which I believe to be accurate and not debatable. If I got something wrong it was not intentional.
Ps3. I dont want to change the outome of the event as I am aware that similar outrageous unfair treatment also happens on far more important events including Olimpics (can describe last one I remember in cycling if you are interested)

Spectator  
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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#47 by KeyserSoze , Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:13 pm

Zitat
regardless of how aggresively he did that



Seriously now?

Zitat
I concentrated on gathering facts which I believe to be accurate and not debatable



Well, they aren't accurate, sorry.

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#48 by Albo_Albo , Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:19 pm

Dear Colleagues from ETC and T9A community

I would like to write that please don't consider annonymous and fake accounts.
Any statements from Polish National Team will come only from official named persons.
Thank you

 
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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#49 by Spectator , Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:24 pm

in my opinion than anything he said to ref regardless of how aggresively he did that

@Kayser, please name a single FACT I got wrong. You cannot? Thank you.

@Legion, sorry. I ll stop now if my posts may harm you in any way

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#50 by SmithF , Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:26 pm

What has become clear to me is that certain things have gone too far.

By that, I mean that there are players so invested in the game and so determined to win at all costs, that when they feel like they've been unfairly deprived of their rightful victory they can get aggressive (verbally and, as it turns out, physically). Further more, there are players who are willing to use any means available to them (including inventing rules, not using tokens for spells to confuse their opponents and/or claim unfair advantage and so on) to win. I get the feeling that loss is not an option for these players, that they feel they need to prove their superior intellect by winning at a game of toy soldiers.

Whether the judges' decision was right or wrong has nothing to do with this. By signing up for the tournament, we agreed to play by the rules. In every game/sport that I know, the judge's call is final. I've lost tournament games due to a bad call from a judge, it happens. That doesn't justify any kind of violent behavior towards them; remember, they are volunteers and fans of the game like the rest of you. In this case, the judges' call was not even wrong, it was common sense and most of the more impartial posters have acknowledged that.

But to get back to the original point that I was trying to make, I believe that the role of this community is also to protect said players who are far too invested in this. Protect them from themselves, because this WAAC mentality has been proven to render them violent and anti-social. Anti-social behavior has among others a defining characteristic: the person in question is not aware that what he's doing is wrong.
As a player but also as a human being I think that some sanction might help put some things into perspective for the player(s) in question, and might even help calm their inner turmoil.

What saddens me most is that in all of this commotion the people in question have not stepped up to do the single most important thing: apologize to the offended party and acknowledge that what they did is wrong.

Good night,

Pascal


Belgium T9A ETC Player 2016 (SE), 2017 (SE), 2018 (DH)

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#51 by Groefte , Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:39 am

Im not a Captain the following is my own view.

While being the background for this thread and discussion the question of how the winner was found need to be put aside.

This thread is about a response to what happened after between the captain of poland and the head jugde.
my views on this matter are based on the description of the insident from both the head jugde and the Danish jugde. If polish captain or other Eye-witnesses disagrees on what happened we need to hear it.

to me the main issue is the fysical intimidation, the namecalling while inapropiete is within the limits of "normal" bad or unsportsmanlike behaviour and a red or in this instance yeallow card seems a proper response.

Being fysical (walking into a person space and forcing them backwards ) with a jugde is to me crossing a line we cannot allow to be crossed. I think there has to be a consequense.

That being said I think having a captains vote on baning a single player is an extremely bad idea. The captains of ETC propose and votes on the rules they are in fact our lawmakers or parlament if you will. a body with that role should never make rules for single persons or try to retroactively punish individuels it is not within their role. Captains have chosen chairmen to run the ETC and a body of jugdes have been selected.

In my opinion any consequense recarding a situation at the tournament should be sanctioned by the jugdes and if that sanction is outside of the direct scope of rulepack it should be presented to chairmen for confirmation.

Let me state it very clearl: No good will come of captains starting to interfere in questions about a named persons participation. it's pandoras box - there is a reason vel functional democracies tries to seperate legisltors and jugdes and try to keep the jugdes independant.

in short i want there to be a consequense but this is the wrong way to do it. I also think the consequense is wrong I dont want to create martyrs or have this linger to next year and have it influence next years ETC.

What i would like to happen -and I know it sounds harsh- is for the jugdes to disqualify this years Polish team. It is in my view within the jugdes right to do that, and would affect this years polish team instead of next years.

No matter what I dont think a captains vote is the way to go.

regards Wilhelm

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#52 by El Rey , Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:03 am

Wilhelm I agree it shouldn't be the captains that ban a player, it should be the judges and chairmen. But if those do not have the courage to do so, the captains need to step in. We simply can not let such a situation go unpunished. It gives a cart blanche to threaten the judges next year "after" the games are done. If such an environment are accepted, who would volunteer to become judges? Who would want to play at such an unfriendly event? I have already heard talks about not attending next years ETC and WTC, if nothing is done, from some teams. I'm flabbergasted that the chairmens can't see right from wrong and do the right thing. Not having chairmen that are willing to be hard, but fair, is going to hurt the ETC. I definitely wouldn't recommend teams voting for the chairmens who aspect this behavior next year.


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ETC 2006 #2 (LM), ETC 2007 #4 (Brets), ETC 2008 #12 (LM), ETC 2009 #3 (DoC), ETC 2010 #1 (VC), ETC 2011 #2 (WoC & AR member), ETC 2012 #4 (Ogre & AR member), ETC 2013 #3 (Ogre, AR member & FAQ member), ETC 2014 #5 (Skaven & AR member), ETC 2015 #7 (DoC), ETC 2016 #4 (Coach), ETC 2017 #4 (Coach), ETC 2018 #5 (Media).

 
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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#53 by El Rey , Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:10 am

Chris Legg Wrote:

Zitat
I wouldn't be too surprised at Furions view point on this matter - this morning he has called me both a retard and a moron when debating this topic on our chairmens.



How is that acceptable behavior from a chairmen? I wouldn't stand for such abuse from a fellow colleague nor should you. If this really is the case, you should take it up with the rest of the chairmen or captains.


T9A Denmark

ETC 2006 #2 (LM), ETC 2007 #4 (Brets), ETC 2008 #12 (LM), ETC 2009 #3 (DoC), ETC 2010 #1 (VC), ETC 2011 #2 (WoC & AR member), ETC 2012 #4 (Ogre & AR member), ETC 2013 #3 (Ogre, AR member & FAQ member), ETC 2014 #5 (Skaven & AR member), ETC 2015 #7 (DoC), ETC 2016 #4 (Coach), ETC 2017 #4 (Coach), ETC 2018 #5 (Media).

 
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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#54 by Krokz , Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:08 am

I'd wait for judges and chairmen to sort this out. We, as Captains, should demand their decision on the matter within a time frame.

Due to bias (both pro and con) I would propose to present both sides of the arguments, posts were already written from Refs and Polish team, to 40k and FoW judges/chairmen and let them decide if this behavior is acceptable on the ETC and on consequences.


Team Slovenia Fantasy captain 2014, 2015, 2018
Team Austria Fantasy 2016

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#55 by Craig Johnson , Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:33 pm

Statement on behalf of Team England T9A captains.

Hi all,

This has gone through me and Mikey, and is our word, so perhaps not indicative of everyone on the team but we hope they can echo the sentiments in this message. Itís easier to write by bullet points, as so much is going on in this situation:

- The majority of Team Poland we have no issues with and are great guys.
- The *main* problem we have, is that at no point has any remorse or apology been offered for any actions. The discussion over why Spain were awarded the win could have continued, regardless of any individual personís actions, but at no point has anything been offered in way of an apology.
- In 8th edition, MANY countries took a WAAC attitude, and there were some very negative interactions. T9A seems to have moved on from this, except for one or two individuals who constantly push the limits and want to win, at any cost, even if that means they are viewed in a bad light.
- Almost every country and player this year had the RIGHT attitude, and certain people, not just from Poland, really need to look at the attitude theyíre applying to toy plastic soldiers that are played amongst friends for zero prize.
- Certain people are simply bad to play against. In pairings against Poland we actively avoided certain people playing certain members of their team for various reasons. This shouldnít be the case, as you should want to play against any of the 8 opponents. I have no issue with the same 8 Polish players being there next year, as long as the attitude of one or two changes.

Most importantly, Irrespective of what happens on the tabletop, no-one, especially family and friends who aren't not part of the event but are there for others, should be made to feel uncomfortable or not enjoy any aspect of the event. We are not going to directly support a ban for Konrad, but we strongly condemn his actions, and something needs to be done, but we're unsure what. His actions and the lack of remorse shown have put everyone in the community in a difficult place, that isn't merely just 'Who has won the event'.

To sum up. We are disappointed in the lack of remorse shown by individuals and their actions. It is clear from the evidence presented why Spain were awarded the win. Certain attendees, and not limited to just those from Poland, need to realise theyíre playing with toy soldiers, among friends, and take a massive look at themselves in terms of their WAAC attitude, and come more relaxed next year.

If it does come to a vote, Team England will vote democractically on it.

As a final point. Some teams have said they will withdraw next year if Konrad is allowed to play. The whole situation has put everyone in a very difficult situation, to the point where we are disagreeing as a team internally over this very statement, there is no right answer at this point, and his actions DO need to be punished, but we are unsure how.

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#56 by Mike Newman , Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:34 pm

.


England t9A 2015, 2016, captain 2017, co-captain 2018, captain 2019

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#57 by pizzaguardian , Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:25 pm

After careful consideration from all parties, the chairmen decided no ban will be issued.

We understand some of you disagree with this, but this is the chairmens decision.


2018 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - ETC Chairmen - WTC Head Judge - BTC Janissaries
2017 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - ETC Chairmen - ESC Referee - WTC Head Judge
2016 ETC Turkey 40K Captain - WTC Head Judge
2015 WTC Merc

 
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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#58 by Craig Johnson , Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:28 pm

To clarify though, the chairman's vote can be overruled by a captain's vote?

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#59 by Jonny , Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:34 pm

Quote: Craig Johnson wrote in post #58
To clarify though, the chairman's vote can be overruled by a captain's vote?


The ETC is by the players, for the players, the chairmen are here as facilitators.


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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#60 by Blonde Beer , Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:55 pm

Do we have a running tally of votes needed?
I believe we should do atleast something here as captains, no matter if the vote ende as yes or no... lets clean house and get this over with.


T9A NL

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Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad
ETC 2018 conclusions

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