RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#31 by van der Loo , Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:57 pm

Hey All

Im the Danish judge that was there with Erik when Konrad confronted him, to say it was a little offensive is an understatement.
He walked in to Erik with his chest and continued walking to push Erik back while he was saying something like "you are the most biased judge ever" it didn't end until Erik shoved him to the side. If it had just been the insult then i would not do much about it, because i understand his frustrations, but the attitude and the physical confrontation was way over the top. The only reason we didn't give him a red/yellow card on the spot was that none of us had expected anything even close to that so we were a bit stumbled.
After that we decided to stay close together in case of similar situations, when we returned to the judges table we were greeted be Erik's wife who said Konrad just came to her and stated that "She had married a horrible person". Now we were both ready to find Konrad and give him a Yellow card in person but he was nowhere in sight and we had the Chairmen who wanted a meeting.

As stated by others this is my first ETC as a Ref, so i have no idea of what have been tolerated at previous ETC, and frankly i dont care. I was judge at this ETC an i wont tolerate this behavior, thats why i fully support the Yellow card we gave him. If that is to hard then dont select me as judge for next year because i would do it again.

-Sune van der Loo


2018 ETC Ref

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#32 by James Brown , Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:06 pm

I would like to echo the Belgiumís, Swedenís and others sentiments - this is about a safe and welcoming environment for all and acceptable standard of behaviour. The fact that the Poland team is still defending this behaviour is deeply worrying.


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Last edited 08.08.2018 | Top

RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#33 by Corky , Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:24 pm

Official statement from Team Denmark!

First off all we had a blast of a tournament, and loved being in Zagreb.
We always love playing team Poland and we are looking forward to doing so, next year!

This brings me to the overall situation.


First: The Witchhunt
I feel really bad that Poland have been subject to an online witchhunt,
most players and any players from Poland I have played have always been good sports and very funn to play against.
So please everyone, if you have any problems with individual players, call them out and not the whole country!

Second: Who wins the ETC
We feel it were the right decision to go by uncapped points, Both in comparison to former years and for the fact that
victory points was not counted in all games! - we do however understand the disapointment from the polish team!

Third: The situation with Konrad against the referees
While i like Konrad as a person and love playing against him, we Team Denmark find it clear that he stepped way over the line.
While their is two sides of every story, we believe more in Eriks statement, than in team Polands, which in our view fails to even adress the real issue and neglects the overall discussion about behaviour. We are a bid dissapointed in Team Polands Response!
The situation was explained to us by firsthand witnesses, and the behaviour should not be tollerated in our community(the same behaviour in any worksplace would get you fired on the spot)
We need to make sure this is a single instance and not something that can be used to intimidate or alienate the judges(or any other person) in the future.
As a result of this team Denmark see no other solution than to put a ban on Konrad for ETC2019

Rasmus/ Danish Captain


9th age: Danish Captain 2018

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#34 by FelixN , Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:48 pm

After reviewing the information and talking as a team we support the captains vote to ban Konrad from ETC 2019.

Team Scotland

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#35 by Marko , Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:57 pm

As a Ref on previous occasion and a candidate for next year I can say that penalties have been rather mild. Those present in Athens will remember that what I perceive as a lesser infraction by member of team Russia was treated much more harshly. I feel Poland got lucky and should strive to get their ranks in order for the future without outside interference to show they follow the same principles of sportsmanship that is expected from all who attend this event.

Marko


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Coach: 2014
Captain: 2019

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#36 by Furion , Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:11 am

1. When is the moment that we act out of Referee-Player hierarchy and we are just civilians to each other?
2. Guys I know you don't care much about the rulespack, however:

Zitat von charter
4. The ETC aims to be the most prestigious team tournament there is by drawing the most skilled players from any country that has a gaming community.
5. How ďthe most skilled playersĒ is interpreted exactly is left open for each countryís community to decide. The ETC is an event, not a federation and as such has no vocation in influencing each communityís approach to the hobby.
...
14. Any country can send one team to represent them. FIFA guidelines are followed for a definition of what a country is, though other sovereign nations who are not recognised by FIFA (eg Monaco) are also allowed to attend. Only one team from each country is allowed entrance in each gaming system (FoW, Fantasy and 40K). How to select a team is left for the individual country to decide and is not something the ETC rules or organization will influence or participate in.

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#37 by Mike Newman , Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:35 am

Are you really trying to suggest that the etc has no authority to ban a player?


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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#38 by lagerlof , Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:47 am

Furion, you are missing some other key points.

"Each attendee to the event is expected to be aware of its content and abide by it."

ETC Spirit (some highlights)

The ETC is an event created for the players, by the players. The most important goal for the ETC is to hold a yearly event where players from all over the world meet up and have fun. Like most tournaments it also provides the framework for meeting up and socializing.

"Every attendee is expected to behave like a gentleman, respect and share the fun with the other attendees."

Either way, the poll is not about deciding how Poland should chose their players, it's about banning one member after he did something that is completely unaccaptable behaviour. Insulting and acting aggressive towards a ref in a soccer game will result in the same ban, except there wouldn't even be any doubt about it.

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#39 by Furion , Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:51 am

Zitat
Either way, the poll is not about deciding how Poland should chose their players


How is telling us which player we can't bring not influencing into team selection?

Also, don't forget the other point. At what point in time we are civilians acting outside Player-Ref hierarchy?

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#40 by Marko , Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:55 am

Zitat
At what point in time we are civilians acting outside Player-Ref hierarchy?



At the moment the Organisers declares the event over, as in any other competition.


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Player: 2007 TK; 2009 DoC; 2010 TK; 2011 DW; 2013 DW; 2018 HE
Coach: 2014
Captain: 2019

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#41 by AntonNikolov , Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:56 am

Quote: James Brown wrote in post #32
I would like to echo the Belgiumís, Swedenís and others sentiments - this is about a safe and welcoming environment for all and acceptable standard of behaviour. The fact that the Poland team is still defending this behaviour is deeply worrying.


This statement aligns with team Bulgaria's view as well.

One thing I want to add is that I thing that we need some kind of official guidelines. They don't need to be strict, but we need something we can reference in the future - "assume intelligent play" is a good example of such rule, but it applies only to the actual game.
I come from the ultra competitive MagicTG scene where cutthroat players wanting to win at ANY cost is the norm and not the exception. Even there actively yelling at a judge will lead to at least 6 month ban. For anything physical you will get between 2 years and a lifetime ban (few years back a guy got 4 years for throwing a card at the head judge) . Also in MTG If a player's opponent constantly call judges on him it will warrant at least a detailed investigation, that might end up with some kind of shorter ban - 6 months to 2 years ( countless examples of similar cases) .
Here we should definitely have much milder penalties, but something is needed. My main selling point when I try to recruit new players is - come with us to the ETC/ESC , it is one of the friendliest competitive events you will ever see. I would really like if this continues to be true.

All that being said, I don't have anything against team Poland and I had great time both time we faced them in the past (Athens and Salamanca). I don't want this to be a witch hunt that specifically targets them - I just want us to have more strict rules that can ensure that almost everybody will feels safe at the ETC and will have a great time there.

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#42 by Humblr , Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:24 pm

Zitat
How is telling us which player we can't bring not influencing into team selection?

Also, don't forget the other point. At what point in time we are civilians acting outside Player-Ref hierarchy?



Once again @Furion' I'm flabbergasted by your answer and way to see things.
If you want to go this way then, of course, Poland can come with banned players. But it's not mandatory for your opponents to play against you at all.
You could also get red carded right after your first step at the venue and leave your team one to two members short.

Honestly, if the Polish T9A community can't handle this situation (and as it happens year after year it seems you can't), the community takes actions.
You can't go against, even by hiding a rule pack you are not willing to comply yourself to begin with.

Humblr, SE French ETC player.


French ETC player 2012/ 2016/ 2018

 
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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#43 by Blonde Beer , Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:08 pm

I have copied the statements from te different sides to the Dutch team for discussion. As soon as we have a consensus Ill post it here.


T9A NL

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#44 by Chris Legg , Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:36 pm

Quote: Humblr wrote in post #42


Once again @Furion' I'm flabbergasted by your answer and way to see things.
If you want to go this way then, of course, Poland can come with banned players. But it's not mandatory for your opponents to play against you at all.
You could also get red carded right after your first step at the venue and leave your team one to two members short.

Honestly, if the Polish T9A community can't handle this situation (and as it happens year after year it seems you can't), the community takes actions.
You can't go against, even by hiding a rule pack you are not willing to comply yourself to begin with.

Humblr, SE French ETC player.



I wouldn't be too surprised at Furions view point on this matter - this morning he has called me both a retard and a moron when debating this topic on our chairmens.

Interestingly, around this time I was messaged by another party on the same chat to say to stop arguing with idiots - fun times ahead!


ETC England WFB / Ninth Age 2009 - 2019
ETC Chairman 2018-2019

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#45 by James Brown , Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:53 pm

ďDue to Poland having 2 yellow cards they got a penalty.Ē

This is ultimately the reason we having these conversations and Poland did not win the ETC. The refs made a hard but fair call in what was a pressure situation. Being a ref is a thankless task at times (I know having been a rugby referee) as someone will always not agree with your decision.

The following actions and lack of an apology over the abuse of a referee and his wife is what is really disappointing. It is a minority within the team but I see no other recourse to continue to push for a vote to ban the individual.

We need to think really carefully about how we want our game to be viewed. Is this an easy course, no. It is the right course I believe 100% it is.

To Furion grasping at straws about interfering with selecting the Poland team I would urge you to reflect on your stance.

Continuing to attack and defend a position where it Is clear lines of decency and unsportsmanlike conduct were crossed does the ETC no credit.


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Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad
ETC 2018 conclusions

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