RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#16 by Murgen , Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:20 am

Quote: SmithF wrote in post #13
Whether the judges' decision was right or not should not be a part of this discussion, if what's under scrutiny is the failure of some people to behave like adults. Verbally insulting someone on the street is considered a crime in most civilized countries (even if we rarely go to court about such stuff), and it should not be allowed at the ETC either.

I would not dismiss this as a small issue. As an ETC player, I want to be sure that being in the venue is safe, and that anyone can bring their friends and family to watch the event and share the fun.


Smith



1) Judge competence should always be a part of this discussion, especially after he was proved wrong - with rules of the tournament as a proof.

2) Verbally insulting - from what I've heard he was called "worst judge" and a "bad person" and it was 1 hour after ending of the event. I would rather call it an honest evaluation of his work. I also heard that as a response another penalty point was given and added to the score (1 hour after event ended - that's some "competent" judgment...)

3) "Behave like adults". It seems some people mistake being adult with being a sheep. Protecting your rights and insisting that agreed rules are followed (you could call it a letter of the law in this situation) is something normal in most civilized countries.

4) When I watch any competition, I like to see best player or team win and not the one with the best "judge" - doesn't matter if that happens on purpose or not.

Sincerely yours,
Wesson

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#17 by Orion , Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:37 am

Quote: niras wrote in post #11
Is it true that after all matches have been played, point was taken away from them (and not even from the last match)?
Is it true that even though they had as many points as Spain, and even more big points they were given 2nd place? Against the tournament regulations?
Is it true that you denied any explanation and deleted posts?

It looks like a witch hunt.



Penalties for handing in scores late are applied on the spot. Penalties for bad conduct are apparently applied after the last round. I think it may have been a matter of miscommunication between the judges and team poland. But regardless, poland capped their opponent of the last round so even if they had known about the penalty they could not have tried to scored any higher. If anything that couldve played in their favour, since Spain pushed hard on their last turns to try and get 95pts out of Australia when they only actually needed 94, and therefore took more unnecessary risks to do so.

Also, Spain had more battle points than Poland according to Tourneykeeper (639 to 603), so in case of a draw they were always going to be the winners. Both Spain and Poland received 2 penalty pts for handing in scores late when they played each other, but spain didnt receive any further penalty pts of any sort while poland have received 2 more for bad conduct towards referees. 1 point was after the event (the Konrad incident) and matters little since Spain had already won it, but it is the 1 point they received when playing the second last round vs Germany that has cost them 1st place.

In the end their behaviour (actually, certain players´ behaviour; I dont want to generalize) cost them the title. Spain finished 5th in Athens but should have at least finished 3rd or quite possibly even 2nd that year if it wasnt for penalties received for bad conduct. They accepted it, realized that wasnt the way, flushed out problematic players, got their crap together and look at them now; champions with half the team being new players and no penalties received for bad conduct. I encourage Poland to do the same (its not like they have a shortage of amazing players...).

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#18 by Dravenlord , Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:40 am

It must have been an Event every single person playing "toy soldiers" as someone pointed out would dream of participating. But you judges ruined this event by giving fake verdict against own set rules for winning side.

I was not there, but taking a deserved win from my nation calls for something big. If, it does not matter if a winner is a true winner then what is a point of even having such event?
Now. I am not even sure, if I would like to take part in such a event. Even if, I reach this level of expertise in this game so I could represent my nation. Also, would not want to have my national shirt stained by someone's possibly not the best but still quite well mannered response to being robbed in a day light. Hope it not grows to a legend of a women eating Pole. He should be more Arab and not talk to a woman at all:)

What would everyone of you have done in such a situation, how would you release your frustration at corruption in progress. This kind of behaviour brings worst memories and awakes worst emotions in every Pole - we had it enough in our history.

It might be just a game, but conduct is a global standard. You have provoked this situation but going against your own rules.

If what Polish side is saying is true - they for me are true champions., knowing some of them in person makes me wonder what a hell is going on in this world.

Possibly, another penalty for demanding the truth.

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#19 by Mike_MO , Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:44 am

@Murgen

Really well put together. Wish someone would address the real issue here instead trying to cover up by crucifying polish team captain. In highly competitive environment you can;t really blame players for being emotional if they play for many hours and later are met with incomprehensible judging and are given no explanation

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#20 by Corky , Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:39 pm

Is the Team Poland statement on the way? - Team Denmark is waiting for this to make a final decision on our stance.

Furthermore, could people please write their Country and if they attended the ETC in the posts, to make sure thiings do not get clouded.

/Rasmus, Danish Captain ETC2018, 9th age


9th age: Danish Captain 2018

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#21 by Albo_Albo , Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:41 pm

Yes, Team Poland will shortly publish their official statement.

 
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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#22 by El Rey , Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:23 pm

.


T9A Denmark

ETC 2006 #2 (LM), ETC 2007 #4 (Brets), ETC 2008 #12 (LM), ETC 2009 #3 (DoC), ETC 2010 #1 (VC), ETC 2011 #2 (WoC & AR member), ETC 2012 #4 (Ogre & AR member), ETC 2013 #3 (Ogre, AR member & FAQ member), ETC 2014 #5 (Skaven & AR member), ETC 2015 #7 (DoC), ETC 2016 #4 (Coach), ETC 2017 #4 (Coach), ETC 2018 #5 (Media).

 
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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#23 by Chris Legg , Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:39 pm

Quote: Razon wrote in post #15
On T9A forum there were some accusations of plain cheating too. And now this, unsporting conduct to say the least.
So, either way we (the community) have a problem. Witch hunting and slander as one possibility, and cheating and physical threats as other.

I really hope the Chairmen will take this very seriously. And punish the offenders accordingly, setting the example for other to follow. Please root out all the rotten egs from our community!

For example, the person(s) that accused other player(s) of cheating, either he gets a one year ETC ban, if he is found to be slandering. Or the accused players get a life ban, if the accusation is true. No third option!

The same with this accusation, of verbal/ physical threats; either the accuser gets a one year ban (I don't care if it is Fjugin we are talking about; the co-creator of T9A, Head judge and other titles he holds); or the accused (Konrad, Polish captain and star player) gets a life ban.


Just picking this one up. For clarity, this is me wearing a normal hat, rather than as a chairmen.

In a game this year, two High Elf players were playing. One had a unit of White Lions containing a Canraig hero with a magic item that only protects against non-magical attacks. They were charged by the second players Dragon Princes. In the magic phase, the Divination attribute was cast on them, and in the ensuring combat phase the dragon prince player advised that the attribute also have them magical attacks. The BS was killed and the game turned. The white lion player was not very experienced.

The following day, when discussing it it became apparent on what had happened and the attribute (nor any spell in the Lore) has a similar effect.

Now, what happens here? The Dragon Prince player is exceptionally experienced and should know better. Is if the first players fault for not checking? Or the seconds for stating wrong rules? What evidence could you expect - this was 12 hours after the event?


ETC England WFB / Ninth Age 2009 - 2019
ETC Chairman 2018-2019

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#24 by Furion , Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:43 pm

.

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#25 by Mike Newman , Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:10 pm

Quote: Furion wrote in post #24

Chriss, please do not spread false rumour.
This was my game, and we resolved it directly after the game.
I told your player to roll the dice and make the saves. If he makes, we switch the game result to anything he deems fair.

He rolled the dice and didn't successfully roll any saves.

Any more questions?


Furion,

Iím pretty sure Chris post was not an attack on you. As he chose purposefully not to name names. Merely a point that referres can only go so far, and that claims of ďcheatingĒ or ďintentionally misleadingĒ or ďforgettingĒ after the fact can not be proven/are to some extent pointless - in this he is back up Poland, not attacking them.

For me. I have great sympathy with Poland. To think you have won the event only to find out you havenít due to a referee call is going to be a hard pill to swallow. And I can see why the reacted emotionally for sure.

So far we are yet to hear;

A) from the refs - why the additional penalty was applied. However as all refs decisions are final and their decisions are beyond reproach from the captains, I see little reason why the decision should be overturned due to Polish outrage Iím afraid - otherwise all ref decision in future can be met with similar reaction untill they are overturned.

B) why the rules pack was poorly written. I believe it referred to battle points both as the capped first decided and the uncapped 2nd decider. However as all team tournaments I have been too have used uncapped as the second decider, and as the uncapped is referred to as battle points on Tourneykeeper - I can see why this was used. Polish may have the right to complain, but I believe the correct decision was made here if the scores were level

C) Konrad, or any other eye witness account of what happened between him and the refs wife. I do not believe it is acceptable to abuse any player, ref, and certainly not a spectator! And should certainly be dealt with in a strict manner. However, at the moment, and knowing how rumour mills work, we have a lot of people who didnít witness the event, nor were even there (so are voicing opinion merely based on 2nd/3rd hand bias of events. It would also be nice to hear an apology/some remorse from Konrad for his actions.

But untill we here a true account of events. I think all this name calling and postureing is more than a little ill informed, and certainly not helping the situation


England t9A 2015, 2016, captain 2017, co-captain 2018, captain 2019

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#26 by FelixN , Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:44 pm

Team Scotland are waiting to hear (the same as many others) from three sources before voting on this.

1. Erik (already posted)
2. Konrad
3. Any spectators that witnessed verbal altercations involving the two mentioned above or those related to them

Frankly we don't care about who won and who lost the event and why. All we care about is that an accusation has been made that a player was abusive towards referees and a spectator affiliated with a referee. This is a hobby and a holiday for all of us. If the event is not deemed to be a safe place that we can bring family, friends and other loved ones without the fear that they will be verbally abused then the event will find it has far fewer teams next year.

We understand emotions, we understand that people prepare all year for this, but neither of these things excuse abusive behaviour and if this is the case then I hope steps will be taken to fix it.

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#27 by Crusader PL , Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:20 pm

Hello everyone,

you can see Polish Statement in a link below:

Team Poland Statement re: ETC 2018

Best Regards
Stanislaw


ETC for life!

2017 Team Poland cherleader - got married

Team Poland Lizardman and Beastman - 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018

Team Russia Lizardman 2006

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#28 by Kiri , Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:40 pm

New year, new incidents with team Poland.
It really seems urgent to me that the ETC and Polish communities take up the problem once and for all for the good of the ETC.

It is not possible that, years after years Furion is caught cheating without any consequences. Again this year he was caught cheating and most of his opponents complained about his behaviour (most of his games were played with a referee at the table). This year again I could see him with my own eyes at work: fantasy movements, terror tests on immune units, magic attacks that are not, the list is long and I only spent a few minutes at his table.

To cheating, this sad sire has now added insult. In front of several witnesses, including referees, he did not hesitate to insult his Spanish opponent of "fucking idiot".

I was not able to observe the incidents related to the announcement of the results with my own eyes. But the various testimonies I was able to obtain are without appeal: several members of the Polish team, but Konrad in particular, had an unacceptable behaviour and I find incredible that their team defends them.


I feel it is urgent to take strong decisions with regard to these events as this sheds a dark light over the hobby which might stop players from coming. This behaviour goes against what ETC is all about: a competition, but a friendly/fun one with players from all over the world we wouldn't meet otherwise (ex: USA, New-Zealand, Australia, Argentina).
This is the reason why:

1) The Luxembourg team supports the request for Konrad's exclusion, the various testimonies demonstrating the gravity of his behaviour,

2) The Luxembourg team, as last year, also asks that Furion be sanctioned. A dismissal from his post as chairman and a ban from the ETC for at least one year seems to me the minimum, the Polish team being unable to get rid of this sad person on its own initiative.


Luxembourg T9A Captain 2016, 2017 & 2018

 
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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#29 by Marcus Östling , Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:34 pm

Hi all,

The Polish statement contained quite a few different points, mostly about who should have been the winner. It's not that I don't have an opinion about "that", but its importance is dwarfed compared to the question in this thread. Let's for one second just ignore which player and which country that player is from, because it doesn't matter one bit. The following facts (which after reading the statement the player doesn't deny, as far as I can see) saddens me to write.

There are two incidents of which I found both being unacceptable behaviour and I feel that I have to share what I know.

The first one regarding the incident with the player and Eriks wife Camilla. I don't personally know Camilla other than that I think that she's a real delight to be around, giving out positive energy, always smiling and being just plain nice. I think that anyone who has met her would agree. Why does this matter? Well it kinda does, if she was the type to go around provoking people and getting into heated discussions about whatever - it could be another matter. She attended this years ETC just to enjoy the event and talk to friends she's made through the hobby. In no way was she there as a T9A staff or anything of the like. She's personally told me about what the player did, going up very closely to her and in an aggressive way saying nasty things about her husband. Naturally this made her shaken and uneasy (understatement of the year). To do this to a family member of a judge (or anyone for that matter) is completely unacceptable, there are no excuses to make a visitor feeling unsafe at the venue. No excuses.

The only thing about the second incident that I would like to remind everyone of are the facts (multiple eyewitnesses and no denying from the player). A player coming up to a judge, towering over said judge and physically bumping into him while trying to pick a fight by using insults. This is... I can't even believe that we've let it come this far. How is that ever acceptable? If that kind of behaviour doesn't render into harsch disciplinary actions I won't be able to convince myself to do this (ETC) anymore.

I really wished that the team would condemn the actions of their team member, as this isn't about critisizing one team, but one player's action. The fact that I've through the years gotten to know quite a few players on the team makes this a hard one to post, but I feel that I let myself down if I don't. I for one can guarantee that if a player on my team did anything remotely like the above, that player would never ever represent my country again. Once again this post is about the actions of one individual, nothing else.

Marcus Östling
Team Sweden 2015-2018

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RE: Captainís Vote - Poland behaviour

#30 by 9thMD , Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:33 pm

Hello All,

There seem to be a number of issues at debate here. I have read the Polish statement and agree with Sweden that it does not seem to dispute the statement of facts raised, but instead tries to rationalize it in the context of the disputed decision.

Judges donate their time and effort to be involved in ETC, and already have to be involved in every dispute and argument that arises. It is an extremely difficult job by itself. Indeed, while I might be able to understand frustration or even anger at a judge for a disputed ruling, becoming aggressive and intimidating is NEVER justified in these situations, and the involvement of a family member of a judge is completely 100% unacceptable. Even in the absence of physically harming anyone, it seems that Konrad's behavior in this instance seriously crosses a line.

In addition, this was not an isolated incident of unsportsmanlike behavior. Team USA played Team Poland in the first round of the tournament, and there were a number of extremely contentious games, with multiple instances in which our players felt that their opponents were actively attempting to cheat (one episode which i personally witnessed). Specifically, these games involved Furion and Konrad. In both games, multiple judges needed to be called multiple times for poor play and consistently ruled for the USA players. Team USA will be sending a list of these instances to the ETC chairmen for their consideration. Nor, as I hear, were we the only team in which there were issues with these specific players, as I have heard multiple teams who played Poland this year had similar experiences. It also seems to be part of a larger pattern, as there have been well documented issues in multiple past ETCs as well. This seems to be not an isolated incident, but a pattern of persistent abuse that needs to be stopped, unless we want to be in a similar position in 2019. Clearly past efforts have been unable to curtail this behavior so something else must be done.


Ryan Capps,
Team USA (c)


2017 Team USA
2018 Team USA
2019 Team USA (c)

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Chairmen Statement on the ETC 2018 - Ban Proposal for Konrad
ETC 2018 conclusions

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