Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#1 by Jonny , Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:45 am

Hopefully this'll be the last vote...

Q1 - Do you want the draw for first round opponents to take place when this vote ends (Now), or should it be done after the ESC on the Thursday evening before the ETC starts (Later)? (Now/Later)

Q2 - Should we adopt the ETC Rulings as shown below? (Y/N/Some)
If you answered Y or N you're done, if you answered Some, please answer Y/N for the individual rules.

Q2.1 - Concealment from Being Dug In (Y/N)
Q2.2 - Bulletproof Hills (Y/N)
Q2.3 - Bagpipers (Y/N)
Q2.4 - Shooting Overhead to and from Hills (Y/N)
Q2.5 - Assaults: Very Slow Tanks Breaking Off (Y/N)
Q2.6 - Assaults: Gun teams not in contact but within 4” (Y/N)
Q2.7 - Assaults: Sneaking up on Tanks from Ambush (Y/N)
Q2.8 - Assaults: Consolidating after an Assault (Y/N)
Q2.9 - Missions: Spearhead Deployment (Y/N)
Q2.10 - Missions: Deployment of Independent Teams in Meeting Engagements (Y/N)
Q2.11 - LIST-SPECIFIC QUESTIONS: Pack Mules and Gun Teams in Burning Empires and Norwegian pdf (Y/N)
Q2.12 - LIST-SPECIFIC QUESTIONS: French and Polish Special Rules and Multiple Formations (Y/N)
Q2.13 - LIST-SPECIFIC QUESTIONS: 25 pdr in Australian Anti-tank platoon on page 147 of Burning Empires (Y/N)

Please vote asap so we can put this to bed, I'll email all the captains to let them know about it. The vote will end on Wednesday 18th July.




Rules Clarifications for ETC
All rulesbook references relate to the EW/LW rulebook.
Shooting
Concealment from Being Dug In

Page 24 of the rules says “once they have dug Foxholes, Infantry and Gun Teams ... are Concealed (see Page 30)...” On page 30, troops in Foxholes in Flat Terrain are noted as being concealed. There is no such mention for troops in Short Terrain and so, rules as written, the dug-in troops would not be concealed from a “Shooting Team on higher ground, such as on a Hill or in the upper floor of a Building or is an Aircraft” (second bullet on page 30).
One might argue that the disturbance to the short terrain from digging in has given away the position of the dug-in troops... but this feels odd to everyone who has looked at it.

ETC Ruling – Infantry and Gun Teams that are Dug-In in Short Terrain are concealed to troops shooting from Tall Terrain and from Aircraft.


Bulletproof Hills
The chart on page 21 indicates that hills provide bulletproof cover. The diagram on page 13, however, has a note referring to Rough Hills that says “Teams half hidden by a hill are Concealed and in Bulletproof Cover.”
Does this mean that:
Infantry and gun teams on hills are always in bulletproof cover?
Infantry and gun teams on rocky hills are always in bulletproof cover and infantry and gun teams are in bulletproof cover on any hill when concealed from the shooting team by the crest of that hill.
Only teams on rocky hills are always in bulletproof cover?

ETC Ruling – Option 2.
Infantry and gun teams on rocky hills are always in bulletproof cover from shooting but not bombardment and infantry and gun teams are in bulletproof cover from shooting but not bombardment on any hill when concealed from the shooting team by that hill.

Bagpipers
The rule book (page 72), as modified by EW/LW Lessons from the Front (page 4), states that “Any unit within 6”/15cm of the Bagpiper requires one extra hit in the Shooting Step to become Pinned Down and in Defensive Fire to be forced to Fall Back.”
In version 3, this did not apply to bombardments. V4 Rules as written would apply also to bombardments.
In discussion on the ETC Forum, there was a feeling that the v3 rule was better.

ETC Ruling.
Any unit within 6”/15cm of the Bagpiper still requires only one hit from a bombardment to become Pinned Down.


Shooting Overhead to and from Hills
Can teams on hills or on the upper stories of building shoot over the heads of friendly teams? And can teams shoot over the heads of friendly teams at enemy teams on hills or on the upper stories of buildings?
Page 28 of the rules says “Line of Sight can be blocked by Tall Terrain (including Buildings and Hills) and Friendly Teams (other than stationary Infantry Teams.” Note that the rules say “can be”, not “are”. Lessons from the Front, page 2 says:
“If I have a team on a high hill trying to see shoot at a team on the far side of a low building, can it do so?
The only way to answer that is to get down to the level of the model and see if there is a Line of Sight over the building to the opposing team.”
This point in Lessons from the Front provides an analogy that is used to develop Option 1 below.
On the other hand, it can be difficult to apply this in practice. Furthermore, while hills ought to be rather high, they are often modelled on the table as little higher than a tank. Furthermore, there can be practical difficulties when shooting over infantry teams. The height of Infantry teams is dependent on how they are modelled e.g kneeling and where on the base they are modelled. Therefore another option is to take a simpler approach and just allow overhead shooting. This is presented below as Option 2.
Option 1: To determine whether teams on hills or on the upper stories of building can shoot over the heads of friendly teams, get down to the level of the model and see if there is a Line of Sight over the friendly team to the opposing team.
The same applies to teams wishing to shoot over the heads of friendly teams at enemy teams on hills or on the upper stories of buildings.
Option 2: Teams on hills or on the upper stories of building can shoot over the heads of friendly teams provided that the friendly teams are at the same, or lower, level as the target team.
Teams can shoot over the heads of friendly teams at enemy teams on hills or on the upper stories of buildings provided that the friendly teams are at a lower level than the target team.

ETC Ruling.
Teams on hills or on the upper stories of building can shoot over the heads of friendly teams provided that the friendly teams are at the same, or lower, level as the target team.
Teams can shoot over the heads of friendly teams at enemy teams on hills or on the upper stories of buildings provided that the friendly teams are at a lower level than the target team.


Assaults
Very Slow Tanks Breaking Off
The rules (page 59) state that if a Team “cannot Move more than 6”/15cm from all Assaulting Teams ... it immediately surrenders and is Destroyed. ”The tactical movement of very slow tanks is 6” (and no team may dash when breaking off because they are too close to the enemy). A very slow tank team that begins its break-off move in physical contact with an enemy team therefore cannot get more than 6” from the enemy. On the old Forum, Phil stated that this meant that they are destroyed.

ETC Ruling – Very slow tanks that begin a break off move in physical contact with an enemy team are destroyed at the end of their break-off move.


Assaults - Gun teams not in contact but within 4”
Page 55, second paragraph, says that Defending Teams are all those teams within 8” of an assaulting team after its initial charge to contact.

Now consider the following assault situation. After the attacker has charged into contact and resolved his hits, there are no longer any Defending Teams in contact with the attacker but there are defending gun or heavy weapons teams within 4” of the assaulting teams. Point 5 on page 55 says that the assault ends only if there are no Defending Teams within 4”. The assault therefore continues.

However, gun (or heavy weapons) teams cannot charge into contact. Is that the end of the assault and must they break off or can they opt to fight on and, if they pass motivation to counterattack, they do not move or roll to hit but they do then force the other player to again roll motivation to counterattack because the assault is not over?

The latter interpretation is consistent with the rules as written. Note that the former interpretation would automatically destroy immobile guns.

ETC Ruling – Yes, guns in this situation may roll to counterattack and, if successful, thereby force the attacker to then roll to counterattack.


Assaults – Sneaking up on Tanks from Ambush
An ambush must deploy more than 4” from enemy (page 95). Consider an infantry unit deploying in concealing terrain, a little more that 4” from an enemy tank team. In the movement step, an infantry team moves to be within 4” of the tank. In the assault step, that team contacts the enemy tank. A second infantry team, which did not move in the movement step, moves into contact with the rear of that infantry team. The second infantry team is then considered to be in contact with the tank (page 53) and therefore the tank cannot conduct defensive fire (page 56).

Phil has said on Facebook that this was not his intention and so we will not permit it for ETC.

Jonny has pointed out that the technique could be used for non-ambushing troops too. The drafting below therefore aims to cover any such situation by excluding second ranks of infantry from the sneaking up rule.

ETC Ruling – For the purposes of the Sneaking Up on Tanks rule on page 56, only the first bullet of
the Charge into Contact rule on page 53 is used to determine whether an Assaulting Infantry Team is in Contact with the Tank Team. (“...its front edge is as close as it can get to the Enemy Team”) The rest of the Sneaking Up on Tanks rule applies as usual.


Consolidating after an Assault
A defending unit can counterattack even if pinned (p58). If this pinned unit is victorious in the Assault, can a consolidating unit move in any direction (p59) or does it have to follow rules for not moving closer to enemy (p41)?

ETC Ruling – A unit that is pinned may still consolidate in any direction, in accordance with the rule on page 59.


Missions
Spearhead Deployment
The rules (page 68) state that “When Deploying their remaining Units, a player may treat the area entirely within 8”/20cm of a Spearhead Team that is In Command as an extension of their Deployment Area. Teams placed here may not be placed in the areas that a Spearhead Team may not move into.” Does this mean that:
No team may be deployed in locations where the Spearhead Team could not have gone due to
proximity to enemy deployment area or
proximity to an objective?
No team may be deployed in locations where the Spearhead Team could not have gone due to
proximity to enemy deployment area or
proximity to an objective or
the 8” being measured through terrain that is impassable to the Spearhead Team?
No team may be deployed in locations where the Spearhead Team could not have gone due to
proximity to enemy deployment area or
proximity to an objective or
being on the far side (from the Spearhead Team) of terrain impassable to the Spearhead Team or
being further from the original deployment area than the Spearhead Team’s movement distance?

ETC Ruling – Option 2. No team may be deployed in locations where the Spearhead Team could not have gone due to:
proximity to enemy deployment area or
proximity to an objective or
the 8” being measured through terrain that is impassable to the Spearhead Team?


Deployment of Independent Teams in Meeting Engagements
When deploying alternate units in Dust Up, Encounter and Free-for-All, do Independent teams such as artillery observers and Warriors (such as de Gaulle) count as a unit? On page 7 of the rules, “Small, single-team units” are described as Independent Units. There is no indication that they are treated differently than any other unit for deployment. The mention of the observer in the sample Führer Begleit list on page 89 tends to support this.

ETC Ruling – Independent units such as observers and warrior independent teams do not count as units for purposes of deployment. They are deployed at the same time as the player’s last unit (other than those in ambush or reserve). If a warrior’s special rule would need him to be deployed earlier (e.g. de Gaulle) then he may be but he still does not count as a unit.


List-Specific Questions
Pack Mules and Gun Teams in Burning Empires and Norwegian pdf

Some gun teams in Burning Empires are rated as man-packed guns teams when equipped with pack mules. This applies to, Italian regimental guns (page 19), Italian cannon battery (page 24), German AT guns (page 61), German light infantry guns (page 62) and German mountain artillery (page 64). The 25mm AT guns in the Norwegian infantry pdf are the same, as is the Italian infantry in Barbarossa Digital Exclusive

EW/LW Lessons from the Front page 7, says “Pack Mules are transport teams that move as Man-Pack Gun speeds”. This does not say, however, that it overrides the rule in the book that makes a gun into man-packed (German mountain guns or Italian small Cannons). This makes a big difference to the gun as it allows it to move 8” and make movement orders but it also means that platoon will begin to take last stand tests sooner (2 guns remaining rather than 1 gun remaining).

ETC Ruling – These guns are not man-packed gun teams. When on their transports, the transports move at man-pack speeds but the guns remain gun teams.


French and Polish Special Rules and Multiple Formations
If using two (or more) different formations and one has a special ability that could affect the entire force (e.g. Polish Piechoty night attack or French moving objectives) and the other does not (e.g. Polish Tank or British Allies respectively), how does this work?

The relevant rules are:
Bypassed (Polish Piechoty) – the rule applies to Polish infantry units so there is no issue.
Night Counterattack (Polish Piechoty) – the rule applies to a player commanding a Polish battalion Piechoty.
High Command – the rule applies to any French player.
Swanning About in the Blue (page 51 of Special Rules and Warriors) – the rule applies to a British Armoured Car Formation that is the attacker in a mission with minefields.

For the Bypassed rule and the High Command rule, there would seem to be no reason to adapt the rule for multi-formation forces. For the Night Counterattack rule one could prevent non-Piechoty formations from moving until dawn (note that there is no obligation to attack at night) or one could apply no restriction.

ETC Ruling – These special abilities can be used without restriction. In particular, units from non-Piechoty formations may move at night if the Night Counterattack rule is applied.


25 pdr in Australian Anti-tank platoon on page 147 of Burning Empires
Can the 25 pdr in the Australian Anti-tank platoon on page 147 of Burning Empires fire a bombardment? It has a bombardment line in the arsenal and the notes say that the guns were detached from field artillery regiments. The 18pdr in NZ AT platoons (page 148) cannot bombard but these guns were modified for direct fire.
ETC Ruling – The 25 pdr in the Australian Anti-tank platoon on page 147 of Burning Empires may fire a bombardment.


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#2 by graham , Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:17 am

Team England votes:

1. Later
2. Yes


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#3 by Regaz , Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:39 am

Team Switzerland votes:

1. Now.
2. Yes.

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Last edited 07.16.2018 | Top

RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#4 by Arkon , Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:14 am

Team Greece votes

1. Now

2. Yes


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#5 by Adamastor , Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:39 am

Team Portugal votes:

1. Later

2. Yes


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#6 by Dirkhrod , Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:00 am

Team Romania votes:

1. Later
2. Yes


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#7 by Rugi , Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:03 pm

Team Slovenia votes (if we even have the right):

1. Now
2. Yes

Best
Jan

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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#8 by Chrisj5154 , Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:02 pm

Team USA

1 Now
2. Yes


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#9 by DaveM , Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:15 pm

Team NZ votes:

Later

Yes (BTW, great job Graham!)


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#10 by graham , Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:09 pm

Thanks Dave. To be fair, the rest of Team England, and particularly Graham Klaka, did a lot of work in pulling together the list of issues. Still, as captain, sometimes you just have to stand up and take all the credit.


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#11 by Adamastor , Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:45 pm


Team Portugal WFB Member 2010
Team Portugal FOW Captain 2012-2018

 
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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#12 by Tenente Paco , Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:25 am

Team Italy:

1. Now.
2. Yes


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#13 by Lynx , Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:23 pm

Team France :

Q1 : Later

Q2: Yes but needs to be printed and present in the tournement rule pack 😉

Great job here guys.
Cheers
See you in 3 weeks


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#14 by Gorko , Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:21 pm

Team Spain;

1. Later
2. Yes


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RE: Vote - Adopting Graham's Rules Clarifications and Draw Date

#15 by inqvizz , Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:53 pm

Team Russia:

1. Now
2. Yes

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