v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#1 by graham , Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:23 pm

Since version 4 was released, many rules questions have arisen and Battlefront has done a pretty good job in addressing them in Lessons from the Front. They have not, however, addressed all of the questions. Over the last year or so, the players now in Team England have played in a lot of v4 tournaments in the UK, in Belgium, in Germany and in Romania and below is the list of issues that we have seen arising at one or more of those tournaments and that have not yet been addressed in Lessons from the Front.

It seems to me a good idea to address as many as possible of these questions in advance so that players and umpires know what to expect and do not waste time and nervous energy on resolving them under pressure at the event.
For each question, I have proposed a ruling to be used at ETC. Please have a look and post your comments. If you agree that it is worth doing then I suggest that we aim to finalise this by around mid-July.

Here's the link to these questions: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10OJn0NJ...iew?usp=sharing


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#2 by 96mgb , Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:24 am

Graham

Only ones I’d disagree with is guns counter attacking. I see no reason why they wouldn’t break off or the attack would auto counter. From a reality POV there’s is nothing stopping the momentum of the attacker’s Assault here which is what a counter attack roll is.

Secondly Independant and warrior teams being units for deployment seem gamey and inconsistent (ie they aren’t units for point). Why not just say they all go down with your your final deplorable unit?


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#3 by Mongol , Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:06 am

Graham, don't you think that bagpipe looks a bit overpowered for its price?
Japs pay 25 point for additional hit for a single unit and you propose to give the same bonus for every unit within 6 for just 10 points?


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Last edited 06.19.2018 | Top

RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#4 by Mongol , Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:37 pm

By the way,a teammate remembered an issue that also needs clarification:

Can infantry sneak attack from ambush?
Rulebook says that infantry team in contact with another infantry that is in contact with the enemy is also counted as being in assault.
Another statement says that a sneak attack can be done if you start your assault being '4 from enemy, concealed by terrain.
So basically I can reveal my infantry from ambush that way that the first row of infantry would be slightly more than 4 inches away, move them a little and then assault, but the second row of infantry would come to contact through the first row without moving in movement step, so sneak attack conditions would be fulfilled. Would this be valid?


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#5 by graham , Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:26 am

Thanks for the replies. Keep them coming. Once we have some more, I'll try to pull together a response. I'll probably do that the weekend after next.


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#6 by Mongol , Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:38 pm

Well, if nobody else has questions I'll continue
A number of old rules appeal to something called "motivation test"
But in v4 rulebook there is nothing with the same naming, could you please specify what is "Motivation test" from ETC point of view?


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#7 by Mongol , Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:36 pm

More army specific question.
Australian troops have an anti-tank platoon:
1510302431.jpg - Bild entfernt (keine Rechte)
It has an option to take 25pouder, that has a bombardment profile.
Am I right supposing that it can actually bombard?


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#8 by DaveM , Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:27 pm

I use NZ Div Cav a lot and the 18/25 pdr in the AT platoon is specifically barred from bombardment in the arsenal.
May fire direct smoke and HE.
I would apply the same to the Australian platoon.


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#9 by DaveM , Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:30 pm

Team NZ do not agree with allowing Bagpiper to have any effect on Bombardments.


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#10 by redvark , Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:11 pm

The Australian 25pdr in the AT battery is specifically banned form bombarding if I recall correctly


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#11 by Mongol , Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:57 pm

Quote: redvark wrote in post #10
The Australian 25pdr in the AT battery is specifically banned form bombarding if I recall correctly

Actually no.
In NZ and African lists it is banned if I recall correctly, but in Australian it is not, I even double checked that in book and on forces.
That's why I'm asking


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#12 by DaveM , Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:24 pm

I would suggest that is an oversight? The note in other lists barring bombardment indicates to me that is the intention of the list writer and in the Australian AT platoon case was just missed in proof reading. We all know how these things slip through....


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#13 by graham , Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:33 pm

Thanks for all the comments. Here is how I propose that we address them:

Bagpiper
I agree with you all. It is not rules as written but never mind.

I have altered the text in the clarifications document to say: “Any unit within 6”/15cm of the Bagpiper requires only one hit from a bombardment to become Pinned Down.” (Note that the unit will still require 6 hits from direct fire.)


Guns counter-attacking
I understand mgb96’s argument but I do not agree with it. As no-one else has commented, I have not made a change.


NZ 25 pdr
Mongol asks whether the Australian 25pdr on page 147 of Hellfire and Back can bombard. Their arsenal entry says that they can.

Dave M argues that it should not because the 18pdr in New Zealand service on page 148 of the same book cannot bombard. The notes on page 148, however, say “...an 18pdr troop. These heavy guns were modified for direct fire...” This seems to me to be the reason why they cannot bombard.

In contrast, the notes for the Australian 25 pdr say “Anti-tank guns platoons from the Australian 2/2 Anti-tank Regiment in Syria were frequently supported by the heavier 25 pdr guns, attached from Field Artillery batteries.” There seems to be no reason why these guns could not bombard.

I have therefore added a note to the clarifications document to say that the Australian 25pdrs can bombard.


Sneaking up on Tanks
Mongol proposes a rather nasty trick to allow infantry to launch sneak assaults on tanks from ambush, even though they must start more than 4” from all enemy. It appears to be consistent with rules as written and so I propose to allow it. I have spelt it out in clarifications document.

Tankers, you have been warned...


Motivation Test
Mongol asked what is a motivation test. I believe that the first paragraph on page 10 of the EW/LW rulebook covers this. I have therefore made no change to the clarifications.


Independent and Warrior Teams for Deployment
I agree with mgb96 that counting Warrior Independent Teams and Observers as units for deployment is somewhat gamey. I have therefore added a note to the clarifications document to say that they are deployed at the same time as the player’s last unit.

A couple of other points came up in discussion with the England Team members who can't post here. Swanning About in Blue should be listed together with the French and Polish rules at the end. I have also clarified that is the Italian infantry in Barbarossa Digital Exclusive that have mules.

You can find the revised document (with the above six changes) at:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fuo85aO...iew?usp=sharing

Is everyone more or less happy with this now?


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Last edited 06.30.2018 | Top

RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#14 by DaveM , Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:14 pm

I meant to post earlier, but just for the record I withdraw my objection to the Australian 25pdr bombarding.
1. It has no note saying it was modified for DF as the NZ 18pdr has.
2. The notes specify the guns were provided by an artillery unit as a stopgap measure to provide more AT and the implication is they were intended to return to the parent unit, unlike the NZ 18pdr.

Nice spot by Team Russia! That's a handy vet template with a pre-ranged in marker.....

Also the "Sneak up on Tanks".....clearly the Spetznaz is working overtime!!


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RE: v4 Rules Clarifications for ETC

#15 by ReBrock , Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:33 pm

Guys, just a little talking about sneaking up on tanks and stuff... I think your approach is really wrong to the subject. What I understood: Infantry pops up from ambush in terrain concealment, more than 4" from the enemy, then moves in the assault, that being the first base of infantry to get into contact with the enemy to be able to have an assault, then the second infantry being in 4" from the first team that MOVED, moves in to hit in the assault. BUT, the assault happens because the first team MOVED more than 4" (so it MOVED) so NO MORE sneak up in tanks (because the assaulting team MOVED!) I agree the second team didn't move and might benefit from the sneak up rule, but still, the assault happens because the first team MOVED. So I really think you should give it a second thought on this rule. Thanks!

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